Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 18 2004 @ 10:02 PM CDT

i know a few anarchist muslims. i have never discussed in depth with them their views on how the two belief systems relate. what i\'m mainly concerned about are the anti-jewish sintamints in the quran. how do anarchist muslims relate to or view this problem?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 18 2004 @ 10:05 PM CDT

Actually, I think Islam is incompatible with libertarian ideals for the same reason that Christianity is: it represents, in its literal form (that is, the form that has not bent over backwards to meet the demands of the modern era) it is a patriarchal, authoritarian religion. For it not to be so takes such an extensive \"interpretation\" of scripture as to make it almost meaningless (I have not read either the Bible or the Q\'uran in their entirety, but I think I have read enough of both to be justified in this judgement). This does not mean that individual muslims can\'t engage in relevant, liberatory activity any more than individual Christians or communists can. It just means that anarchism is not compatible on a fundamental level with authoritarian worldviews. The conflict that is created must be obvious.
As for the question of blown up police stations, put simply, some of us do not agree with this author\'s view of the matter. Enough said.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 01:47 AM CDT

Are you serious? How much do you know about \'anti-Jewish sentiments in the Koran\'? Maybe look into it. While you\'re at it, look into racist and generally awful stuff in the Christian bible, or the Jewish bible too. They\'ve pretty much all got it.

Much to my confusion, some believers of these various religions I\'ve met still somehow manage to be decent, and occasionally solidly great, people. Me, I say no thanks to any of that God stuff, but unlike in my ultra-anti-religious youth, I\'ve realized through meeting people (including Catholic Workers and Jewish anti-occupation activists), that it is somehow possible to have a religion and still be an all right kind.

But you should do a little bit of research on Islam and Muslims and history and theology and all that shit, BEFORE you ask your anarchist muslim friends the question in your post, which is kind of stupid in so many ways at once, to avoid embaressing yourself.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 08:03 AM CDT

I don\'t know how much you read. I don\'t know what translations you used. Most translations reflect the recieved doctrine as much as the original words. This affects not only how they translate individual passages but also how they choose among variant forms.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 08:04 AM CDT

Muslim-anarchist PAH!... thats as bad as Xtian- anarchist. Personally I would like to see the only hyphenated anarchists as * PAN-Anarchists.* Universal, all embracing and under \' diversity of tactics \' doctrine eminently achievable. Fuck religion for a joke!
If there was a god it would be necessary to destroy it.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 10:45 AM CDT

How does that follow?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 12:23 PM CDT

-llowell- No disrespect, but middle-eastern Muslims are Semetic peoples as well, for someone to be anti-semetic they would have to be strongly prejudice against more then a Jewish population. Also, just because someone is part of a religion does not make them a slave to the texts of the religion, in other words if there are hatefull words towards other religions in the Koran it does not mean all Muslims will hate other religions. Before Palestine was stolen both Jewish and Muslim families lived side by side in the same communities, most of the time in peace. It was not until the expulsion of ALL peoples living on that land (including Jews)for a zionist state to emerge that strong anti-jewish sentiments started to emerge in the Middle East. While prejudice amongst Muslims and Jews goes further back in history then the creation of Isreal, it was the creation of the zionist state that brought about a hidden genocide of Palestine peoples that created prejudice and strong anti-Jewish sentiments in the Middle East.

Yes, it is ok for the native to hate and even fight back against their colonizer. No, this does not make them anti-Semetic.


As for the idea that their should be some uniform anarcho plattform for which all revolutionary ideals must line under- it is not only NOT realistic in the slightest but smells stongly of elitism and white-supremacy. In that anarcho-imperialism and anracho-elitism both stem from white domination (yes- in my experience it has been mostly white men who act \"more anarcho-then-thou\" when it comes to politics) In other words of course their can be religous anti-authoritarian revolutionaries. And if you disagree, what does it matter to you that someone is a Christian anarchist, a Jewish anarchist or Muslim anarchist? are you going to hunt them down and shake your white finger at them and tell them \"no, you can\'t be an anarchist and practice a religion blah blah blah\"

...if their on your side why do you give a fuck?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 12:33 PM CDT

i am a Christian with heavy anarcho-primitivist leanings. the early church lived in a very egalitarian and communal manner. sorry for what many of us have become, i may disagree with some of your beliefs for religious reasons, but you have my support 100percent

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 01:59 PM CDT

i think what many anarchists see as a problem with Christianity is that the relationship between god and man seems to be one that is inherently hierarchal. Beyond that, the church is obviously set up in a hierarchal manner. in islam, there does not exist much scripture that calls for a hierarchal church, but there is still the hierarchal relationship between god and man. So the question is, are you willing to have a hierarchal relationship, albiet with a non-worldly being, and still believe in anarchism?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 02:16 PM CDT

There is a growing sect of Islam that believes every human a god. A-l-l-a-h, stands for Arm, Leg, Leg, Arm, Head. This idea that every person is spiritually their own god and goddess...theres more info out there on the ideas behind it I just run into a few people who believe it every now and then...

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 05:09 PM CDT

What the fuck? That \"growing sect of Islam\" you\'re talking about is the Five Percent Nation cult. They believe that Black men (or Gods) are the physical manifestation of God, and that everyone else (but especially including Black women, or Earths) is supposed to worship them.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f14.html

They do a lot of really stupid word tricks like that one to do their reasonings, \"mathematics.\" Where did you hear about this \"growing sect of Islam,\" Wu-Tang lyrics?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 05:11 PM CDT

I don\'t get it. -llowell- didn\'t say anti-semetic, s/he said \"anti jewish\".

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 05:24 PM CDT

I just run into a few people who believe it every now and then

Okay, sorry, just re-read that.

Seriously, though, the 5 Percent ideology is racist and extremely patriarchal, as well as politically vanguardist, and is NOT a good example of a heretical, humanist strain of Islam.

If you want to be a humanist, go be a humanist. If you wanna be a heretical Muslim, great, go be a heretical Muslim. Arm Leg Leg Arm Head is not a step in the right direction. (Try doing a Google search for Sufism and Anarchism together or something, but probably avoid Hakim Bey lest you stumble into something dodgier yet.)

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 06:58 PM CDT

All this talk of monotheism reminds me of the Wood Guthrie song Jesus Christ. The lyrics could easily have a secular meaning- Jesus Christ as a revolutionary, instead of a savior. Woody Guthrie has two versions, my favorite goes:

Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land,
A hard working man and brave.
He said to the rich \"Give your goods to the poor.\"
But they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

Jesus was a man, a carpenter by hand,
His followers true and brave,
One dirty little coward called Judas Iscariot
Has laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

He went to the preacher, He went to the sheriff,
He told them all the same,
\"Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the poor,\"
But they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

When Jesus come to town, all the working folks around
Believed what He did say,
The bankers and the preachers they nailed Him on a cross.
Then they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

The poor workin\' people, they followed Him around,
They sung and they shouted gay,
The cops and the soldiers, they nailed Him in the air,
And they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

Well, the people held their breath when they heard about His death,
And everybody wondered why,
It was the landlord and the soldiers that he hired,
To nail Jesus Christ in the sky.

This song was written in New York City,
Of rich man, preacher and slave,
But if Jesus was to preach like He preached in Galilee,
They would lay Jesus Christ in His grave.




This style of anarcho-Christianity I can hang with. \"The bankers and the preachers. . . the cops and the soldiers. . . and the landlord . . . laid Jesus Christ in His grave.\" I don\'t have faith in it, its an interesting mythology that does not clash with my anarchist views.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19 2004 @ 07:19 PM CDT

\'Allah\' is an Arabic cognate of Hebrew \'El/Elohim\' meaning \'God\'. \'Allah\' is not an English acronym somehow inserted into Arabic texts. \'Nuff said.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 20 2004 @ 03:41 PM CDT

believing
supernaturality
moral judgement
assumptions
these are all violent alienating dehumanizing stratagies and incompatable with anarchism

think Brights please

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 20 2004 @ 10:17 AM CDT

I guess if various Abrahamic religious people dig anarchism that\'s good since it indicates to me that they have an interest in transforming the physical world rather than spending all thier energy and resources on telling me about theological constructs that may or may not exist.

There is the skeptic in me however which is waiting for religious people to try to co-opt anarchism the way they seek to try to co-opt various sub-cultural currents.
(But hey that\'s just my little pessimistic speculation:-)

Christo-Muslim-anarchists...go for it! Maybe they can steal the fire from the fundies!

Be Well,
Wart

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 20 2004 @ 10:30 AM CDT

Likewise. Anti-theists tend to focus on the negative, aspects which aren\'t terribly relevant to Christians. The prophets Amos, Isaiah and other ones spoke of egalitarianism, and arguably anti-state.

\"The exalted will be humbled, and the humble will be exalted\" Jesus said.

If you\'re a materialist/rationalist, I have no problem with that. I\'m not proposing a theocratic anarchy, but it would be more than slightly hypocritical for anarchists to stop people from believing in whatever they want. Free thought, right?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 20 2004 @ 11:01 PM CDT

Not all parts of the Bible are based on a patriarchy. Many of the things that Jesus talked about follow the guidelines of libertarian and anarchist beliefs. The church fucked a lot of that up though, and even let our a lot of the gosples because it went against their idea of a structured and organized religion that centered around the church, and not Jesus.

Hell, catholics who follow the ways of the old church, even worship Mother Mary, an idol.

But back on subject, a lot of things Jesus talked about were based on ideals and beliefs that are the same or similar to those held by anarchists. Showing compassion for hte common man, lending a helping hand, working together as a community, being a pacifist, he even talked about staying out of politics.

God seems to be really bipolar if you read the bible. First he hates us, then loves us, than loathes us, then destroys cities, and then loves us again and sends his \"son.\"

Personally I\'m agnostic, but I have a respect for Jesus\' teachings and parables, since they are just like my personally held beliefs.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, October 21 2004 @ 09:33 PM CDT

would anyone with an educated opinion like to answer my original question?

just a couple responses to non-sense statements. for starters, yes the Koran has anti-jewish statements in it (at least the interpretations i have read). it\'s there, look it up. it blasts jews as being \"non-believer\" and there for should not be alowed to same privilages as muslims. my question is how do @-muslims relate to statement like these?
I also didn\'t say anything bad about anyone or their religion. I\'m totally down with people of any religion so long as they act like a decent person, particularly in an anarchist fashion. I myself am jewish and am familiar with the Torah (jewish bible) and feel confident in letting you know it doesn\'t slander chirstians or muslims, mainly because they didn\'t yet exist, if you did your research before you slandered me you would know that.
so would someone who might know please answer my question?

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Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, October 27 2004 @ 09:29 AM CDT

violent? What the hell are you talking about? You don\'t know my personal dogma...

Requiring an end to religion is anti-anarchist, too, you know.

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Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 04:47 PM CST

Salaams

The problem with yer average secular anarchist/leftie, in my experience, is they base their understanding of religions (and hence Islam) on the lyrics of Dead Kennedys \'Religious Vomit\' and Polly Toynbee\'s Guardian diatribes. Okay, some of you on here may know more, but how much more? And how to you compare the Muslim tradition to your own histories? Christianity was effectively ditched by Europeans because it was political oppressive and opposed to genuine learning. That isn\'t going to happen to Islam.

Islam is the faith of two billion, growing on every continent and has an extremely vibrant intelligensia. It is also a remarkably diverse faith, despite the impact of Islamism. Perhaps Islam might transform, but you won\'t see mosques going the same way as most English churches.

Where you take it from here, of course, is up to you. But in the light of a growing global Islamophobia (UN conference on this topic imminent), tolerance, learning and dialogue would be appreciated!

Wasalaam

Yakoub

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Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 25 2004 @ 05:14 PM CST

Religion isn\'t compatible with Anarchism. Never has been either. It\'s not just the patriarchy and hierarcy of the church; it\'s much deeper than that.

Religion is an irational dogma that says you must be saved, purified, or in some way follow their commandments. Libertarians want a world liberated from irationality and worship. We want people to think for themselves.

Think about Christianity for a moment; jesus message was to love god and your neighbor. Jesus \'forgave\' the \'sins\' of taxcollectors and other enemies of the people. This is of course incompatible with anarchism. We will not \'forgive\' the bourgeoisie -- we actively seek their destruction.

Please, you bullshit worshiping idiots, leave your ignorant hands off anarchism. If you read anything about anarchist history, you\'ll learn that anarchists were prehaps the most anti-clerical of all revolutionaries in history. The Spanish civil war will give you a good indication of how libertarians regard religion: it\'s a scam to be uprooted, killed and destroyed.

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