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San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: Wolverine on Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:01 PM CDT
I'm amazed that there are still so-called anarchists like punk who still do not see the basic problems and empty euphemisms of "anti-fascism". It's empty rhetoric just like anti-imperialism(as Lawrence recently wrote). If you are an anarchist it is kind of a given that you are against fascism, the question is what is the meaning of the use from those who are not anarchist and have authoritarian inclinations.

Gilles Duave everyone

http://libcom.org/library/when-insurrections-die
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: Admin on Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:28 PM CDT
The U.S. government fought and "won" a war against fascists.

That makes them anti-fascists, of a kind. Granted, the volunteers in ALB weren't statists, but many of them supported Stalin's Soviet Union. Not much more I can add, because there have been several excellent responses in this thread which criticize the blind worship of communist anti-fascists.

Chuck
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: CaseyFord on Friday, July 25 2008 @ 05:10 PM CDT
As usual, this has devolved into a debate where I can't quite agree with either side.

But come on Chuck. How the hell is saying that it's useless and ridiculous to deface a memorial to a group of largely good-intentioned people, some of which were anarchists the same as "blind worship of communists." Holy logical leap, Batman.
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: laure on Friday, July 25 2008 @ 06:45 PM CDT
I'm gonna have to agree with Chuck here.
Listen, lots of well-intentioned anarchists simply did stupid things. Some of them woke up and got sense, some didn't.
In a comparison that should be crystal clear, how many people joined the Bolsheviks or cooperated with them in various manner during the Russian Revolution? I bet you anything they were also well-intentioned. But does that mean I can't deface a Bolshevik monument because some anarchists cooperated with Bolsheviks?
During the Russian Revolution there were a lot of Bolshevik bastards that convinced anarchists that they were on the same side. If a person was really a normal anarchist though, they eventually woke up and told the world of the disgrace.
I don't think that it's any coincidence that so many of the anti-communist veterans stayed away from the little fraternities that sprung up after the war. If you had half a brain and a conscience and were in the ALB, you might well have found yourself in deep trouble with the CP types. I honestly don't think that any anarchist veterans of Spain, regardless of what unit they were in, would chose to see this type of historography where this is already the third monument to the Lincolns instead of to all veterans. Somebody here is really going out of the way to present history one way and not the other.
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: punk on Saturday, July 26 2008 @ 01:21 AM CDT
o common dont you know your history? apparently us ignorant anarchists need to be re educated. dont you realize that the intentions of the workers who fought nazis in Spain were the same as the SS?

What we really need to be doing to alienating more people with stupid stunts, dogmatic historical analysis, and pretentious banter so we can fell good about ourselves while the real world crumbles around us.

I think this was a point echoed by another comrade before his post mysterious disappeared from the forum... talk about Stalinism!
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: Annoyed on Saturday, July 26 2008 @ 11:37 PM CDT
I'm glad you acknowledged how my response was deleted. You wrote, "What we really need to be doing to alienating more people with stupid stunts, dogmatic historical analysis, and pretentious banter so we can fell good about ourselves while the real world crumbles around us."

That really wasn't the main point of my post, and that is probably my own fault for not being very clear. As far as the action goes, I have mixed feelings about it. But what really made me want to post on this thread was the style of debate and the needless hostility on here. One of the main things that attracted me to anarchism was the form of decision making and I think it is a shame that there is still such an unhealthy form of discourse going on. That is really what I was commenting on. I don't think this is your fault either punk: I think that lies with others. But it is very disconcerting to see a lot of the silly name calling being thrown around so liberally on here. Even if people have some kind of serious historical misunderstandings there should be some level of tolerance; particularly with people (like those posting on here) who almost definitely have good intentions.

Graebers essay, The Twilight of Vanguardism I think is important. A lot of us still have these sectarian forms of discourse ingrained is us. Even if one is correct about some historical fact, and knows it for certain, there is a civil way to discuss it without alienating people.
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: Admin on Sunday, July 27 2008 @ 03:35 PM CDT
Let's be clear that your post was deleted because it attacked one of the moderators and his positions on this subject. We don't allow people here to personally attack Infoshop collective members.

It's ironic that I have to point this out after your post takes the high ground about discourse in the anarchist movement. If you believe these things, then we shouldn't have to delete one of your posts. What I find bothersome about this thread is that several people, after being challenged about their grasp of the facts, and their foolish apologetics for people who collaborated with Stalinists, are responding by attacking the tone of people's posts, instead of addressing the arguments. I think people like Lawrence and Laure have done an excellent job providing some background on the political situation during the American involvement w/ the Spanish Revolution. My comments about people needing to crack a book is a general comment about some anarchists who are ill-informed and don't read books. I know that many anarchists do make an effort to read and educate themselves about these topics, but recall what Emma Goldman said about ignorance being the greatest enemy of freedom.

If we have anarchists who are taking the side of Stalinists, criticsm of these positions is not sectarian, rather an attempt to educate and challenge people who've adopted a rather *stupid* position. Authoritarian leftists are no more our friends than neo-fascists are our friends. Nothing sectarian about that!

Chuck
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: punk on Saturday, July 26 2008 @ 01:14 AM CDT
the fact that most anarchists are not like you and dont blindly follow this kind of nonsense is what keeps me still an anarchist. from your take on this issue it seems that anti facism and anti imperialism are the least of your concerns.

I think there is a monument to the Tuskegee airmen somewhere, why dont you get a bunch of stupid pretentious anarchists to go vandalize it so you can alienate people and feel good about yourselves.
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: lawrence on Saturday, July 26 2008 @ 02:39 AM CDT
Talk about red (and black) herrings! Not only do you need to read some anarchist history, learn how to read with comprehension, and figure out what year it is; you also need to learn how to stick to the subject, and not deflect people's attention to other, completely irrelevant topics.
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: punk on Saturday, July 26 2008 @ 10:54 AM CDT
i am sure i have read more history, and more anarchist history, than you. but this is not about playing your pissing contest game. you can read all the books in the world but if you dont comprehend them, because your mind is as narrow as any stalinist, its pointless.

In this thread i have seen the intentions of the Lincoln battalion compared to that of the SS.

"A lot of people who were in the SS claim that they didn't know what was going on, and knowing how people are easily deceived, I believe it. That does not mean that we can relativize the SS and not say clearly was it was, although there are plenty of people in German (not even right-wingers) who try to portray their parents and grandparents as just some normal decent people who, yes maybe fought somewhere, yes maybe was a nazi, but they weren't bad people. Excuse the comparison"

Again one of the most ahisotircal and ignorant things i have ever read. This along with the stupid action taking in san franciso highlight just two of the things wrong with the anarchist movement today.

you are so eager to pick stupid and pointless fights with imagined enemies, simply to feel good about yourselves, with absolutely no understanding of the mentality of the workingclass or what the consequences of your actions will be.

San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: lawrence on Saturday, July 26 2008 @ 12:30 PM CDT
If you're so sure that you've read more than I, I invite you to visit my home and look at my library. Then I'd be happy to visit yours. When you assert such nonsense, you are the one engaged in a pissing contest. All I said was that you need to read more, and comprehend it better. I have plenty of comprehension skills, and am fully confident in those abilities. Your defensiveness and complete lack of any counter-examples based in fact are sure signs of your serious deficiency in that area. The evidence for your accusation of me being narrow-minded is apparently my insistence that the International Brigades in general and the Lincoln Battalion in particular were dominated by Stalinists, that the IBs were a Comintern Army in Spain, and that all the components of the IBs were being used to further the foreign policy of the Soviet Union. That's not narrow-mindedness, that's historical analysis.

The comparison between members of the SS and the "Lincolns" was a comparison, not an analogy. This is another example of your lack of comprehension. A comparison between them is based on what was said by the members themselves and their families and supporters--not a particular ideology they claimed to follow or represent. This was not a comparison of nazis with Stalinists, but of rationalizations after the fact. If you still don't understand that it's your own fault.

You believe that Stalinists and other Leninists are "imagined enemies." Is that because you ignore the actual history of the interactions between anarchists and Leninists? Here are some notable examples:
The suppression of anarchists in Petrograd and Moscow, April 1918;
The suppression of the Makhnovists, 1919-21;
The crushing of the Kronstadt revolt, 1921 (I know this wasn't an anarchist rebellion, but the ruthlessness with which Lenin and Trotsky suppressed the Kronstadters is paradigmatic);
The withdrawal of support (leading to its suppression by the KMT) from the Shanghai Commune, 1926;
The executions in Barcelona, May 1937;
The suppression of the Council of Aragon and its surrounding agricultural collectives, June-August 1937;
The crushing of the self-organized rebellions in East Berlin 1953, Hungary 1956, Poland 1956 and 1972, Czechoslovakia 1968 (again, not anarchist rebellions, but worth supporting from an anarchist perspective);
The sell-out of the French working class 1968...
Do I really need to continue? But I guess these acts of anti-working class suppression were imaginary too? Or the rebellions weren't really working class based? I'm sure glad you understand the mentality of the working class so well.
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: Admin on Saturday, July 26 2008 @ 05:33 PM CDT
There are plenty of other examples, of course.

We have a set of texts on this website that relate how the communists backstabbed anarchists who were imprisoned in southern France during the Vichy Republic during WWII.

Chuck
San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: punk on Saturday, July 26 2008 @ 10:10 PM CDT
woahh what a big anarchist dick you must have! why dont you post a picture of the giant library of yours so we can all see how many big books you read. but as i said earlier, even if you do read, with such a narrow mind and your failure or comprehension and historical analysis, its pointless.

yea i said it was a comparison, and any comparison of the intentions of lincoln brigade volunteers and the SS is beyond retarded.

Everything else is a complete strawman argument on your part. but it proves my case for the stupidity of the original action. you want me to be some kind of stalinist suppressing anarchist so bad you dont know what to do with yourself and it causes you not to think rationally.

Thats why to you the war memorial is nothing more than a celebration of Stalinism. to me, and to most people, its not. both historically and practically. hence it was stupid.

San Francisco: Stalinist Spanish Civil War Artwork Vandalized
Authored by: lawrence on Sunday, July 27 2008 @ 02:00 PM CDT
If you'd actually read the comparison dispassionately, and use your rudimentary (and in desperate need of remediation) comprehension skills, you'd be able to tell that it was a comparison of AFTER THE FACT JUSTIFICATIONS, not pre-action intentions.