DGP: the first question i wanna ask you guys is related to the consequences for continuing business as usual. A lot of people are still stuck on the symbolic protest model, and also as you know, with the election coming up, we can see how many people are still, unfortunately, caught up in this idea that the political system is somehow going to change things or save us from disaster. So my question for you is, if this state of affairs is allowed to continue, and if we continue on this current trajectory, where do you both see things heading in the near future?

Jeff Luers & James Kennedy On Direct Action and Eco-Defense

Jeff Luers and James Kennedy discuss their organizing and direct action experiences and give advice on how to build radical movements.

Below is an excerpt from the audio. Click here to listen to the interview

James: Do you mean nationwide, or locally for our individual struggles?

DGP: Maybe both?

James: Well, in terms of locally, we have a few separate movements here; the first is we're working to protect the peaks, the San Francisco peaks in Flagstaff, a holy site for the Diné, Hopi, and i think about ten other tribes. So we work in solidarity [with indigenous people] to help protect the mountain from further development. Our main struggle is against Snowbowl, the ski resort that's developing the mountain and wants to put treated sewage effluent up there...which they call in the media, 'reclaimed waste water'... So we're working to stop them from putting that on the mountain. And essentially, i know at least for Diné people, once that waste water goes on the mountain, because that water has been to the coroners office, because it's been to the morgue, because it has touched death, spiritually, from what i understand, once it's on the mountain its almost a point of no return. That's coming up almost two months from now in November.

Regarding the peaks, we don't take action that's more than symbolic without guidance from indigenous elders in the area and native people in general because we're allies in that struggle, were not leading that struggle. For us its never been symbolic because we're at zero hour once this waste water hits the mountain - it's a point of no return, it's almost game over. Symbolic protest [in support of the sacred sites] was once an initial tactic years ago, but it hasn't meant anything for the past two or three decades. For me it was never on the radar; we need to take direct action to stop the pipeline carrying the reclaimed water, and also to stop the development and the clear cutting on the mountain.

We're also working locally to protect our water resources. They want to use, and they are already using, reclaimed waste water in parks and other public places in the city. Wherever they can use this water they plan to use it, and it has anti-bacterial resistant bacteria in it. So we're working locally in that effort; I'm not sure if I would call this an indigenous led effort; it's an effort in the city that doesn't have as direct a correlation to the sacred sites. So for us we have a little more leeway in terms of, yes, we do use symbolic protest to garner media attention and to gain support. Some people, especially the corporate media, like to frame the symbolic protests, the peaceful protests, as the only way to protest, the only way to take action, the only way to get your voice heard. I would say that it's not completely irrelevant, it's definitely one tool in the tool box; when we take action we get a lot of media attention which helps spread the word. But when it comes down to functionally stopping the pipeline or stopping clear cutting, or preventing our children from being exposed to dangerous bacteria, I think we'll use any means necessary. If somebody's going to hurt your kids, or your friends, or your neighbors, do you stand outside with a sign, or do you physically remove them from your house and get them away from the people you want to protect?

Jeff: I think that we're actually living through the time where America becomes an overtly fascist country. I think protest is cultural; when you look at other cultures around the world - the Palestinians, the Greeks, the Irish - people resist in methods which are ancestral and cultural to the places where they come from. Here in America we have been totally conditioned into petitioning the government for redress by standing around holding signs because it's the time honored system by which you protest. People hold to that because it's traditional, they understand it, it's a comfort zone. But what has changed is its effectiveness. We see that we have these protest zones now where the only place you can go and hold your sign is this designated block surrounded by cops that's miles from where an event is happening. I mean, that's no longer effective even in a sign holding capacity.

I think we see more forms of oppression when people use effective means of protest, or effective means of changing the debate - the government tries very hard to stop that from happening again. The Occupy movement is a really great example of how that's happened recently. We saw what was once a nationwide and international non violent movement, and now when we look at Oakland, Portland, and other places in the northwest, we have [people facing] multiple felonies stemming from non violent direct action that took over ports, or took over universities - those activities are now being classified as terrorism. There are several raids that have happened here in the northwest in which friends of activists and self identified anarchists have been targeted for these grand juries that apparently, as much as anyone can figure out, pertain to anarchist organizing especially within the Occupy movement. So we're starting to see a crackdown on anarchists very similar to what we saw with the green scare, when environmental activists were branded as terrorists and sent to prison. So, you see that there's this increased repression against people who are willing to push the edge of protest a little bit further or push for making protest effective, and there's this demonization of radicals within the government and within the media so that's it's slowly eroding not only the desire to protest, but also the civil rights necessary to be able to protest in this country.

We have not only reached a point in which we live in a police state and need to resist that emphatically, but when we start to factor in things like global climate change, pollution, upcoming famine, class issues, and issues of horrible foreign policy abuse - all those are categorical grounds for resistance under international law.

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