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Tuesday, February 09 2010 @ 06:45 PM UTC

The Problem With Zeitgeist

Anarchist OpinionThe Zeitgeist Movement is now ubiquitous. Everywhere I turn, I hear alienated youth having dialogue about this phenomenon, and I opened a local free newspaper recently to find an article about college dropouts who drive a bus around the country promoting the movement’s ideas. The Zeitgeist Movement is now ubiquitous. Everywhere I turn, I hear alienated youth having dialogue about this phenomenon, and I opened a local free newspaper recently to find an article about college dropouts who drive a bus around the country promoting the movement’s ideas.

There is a of course a great irony in this movement: “Zeitgeist” has all but replaced the fringe-groups discussing September 11th being an inside-job and other irrelevant “conspiracies” (of course the conspiracy industry is reluctant to acknowledge the two greatest public conspiracies: capital and the State). In other words, the anti-political fiction du-jour has had quite the metamorphosis. Alex Jones, one of the entrepreneurs of the conspiracy industry and proponents of “New World Order” “theory” (if ever a word was so bastardized), has been dethroned by Peter Joseph and his hypothetical technological utopia.

Joseph, too, has drastically changed his tune. The first Zeitgeist film was cliché conspiracism, i.e., the Federal Reserve, September 11th, and the New World Order are discussed in intricate, albeit fabricated, detail. These are all favorites in the conspiracist milieus.

“Zeitgeist” has changed this, however. The mostly anglo-saxon, (previously) politically right-leaning constituency that praised Ron Paul as the new savior, has (kind of) done a 180. What do I mean by this? Well, for the uninitiated, the Zeitgeist Movement has now claimed to be the “activist arm” of the Venus Project, a strange organization spearheaded by social engineer and architect Jaque Fresco. Without digressing into an abyss, a brief overview of the Venus Project would be relevant to the discussion: a technologically advanced city blueprint that did away with money, war, environmental degradation, and eventually, they claim, government. Jaque Fresco and Zeitgeist leader Peter Joseph describe these sustainable cities as encompassing a “resource-based economy.”

What would be relevant to anti-authoritarians about such a movement? What should be relevant is the fact that many are co-opting, connoting, or merely associating the movement with anarchism. An overview of “Zeitgeist” sounds good, and anti-authoritarian. What’s the problem, you may ask? The main problem is that it’s a utopian vision, i.e., the Zeitgeist Movement goes in depth on how the new world will look, but it offers no vision on how to create the new world within the shell of the old. The second problem is essentially an extension of the former: people should not be told what kind of society they should have. It is highly doubtful that anti-authoritarian theory can come from an authority, academic or otherwise. Anti-authoritarian theory is participatory, and if meaningful, is created by a majority. Wherein “revolution” is needed, to remain anti-authoritarian and relevant to a majority of the population, it requires the majority. Otherwise, it risks the danger of becoming a vanguard. But “Zeitgeist” has no mention of how to get from here-to- there. Troublesome in the dialogue I have heard, as mentioned, is the idea that “Zeitgeist” is anarchism (Johnson, 2009). Anarchism has never preached one way, as does “Zeitgeist” (save for the anarcho-dogmatists). The lack of plurality within the movement and acceptance, of say, primitivists, syndicalists, communists, or other socialists, is not known because it is omitted. “Zeitgeist” also immediately connotes hierarchy since it puts all of its faith in science, hence scientists. Since some will be more apt than others towards science, this could easily give us a new bureaucracy.

The Zeitgeist Movement is not a political movement?

Peter Joseph claims that “Zeitgeist” is not a political movement. (Joseph, 2009) This is a strange statement for Joseph. After all, he is deeming power structures useless and obsolete, wants to abolish the monetary system, dismantle multinational corporations, and, apparently, the nation-state. Not political? It sounds an awful lot like historical political movements that arose through the development of capitalism and the labor movement’s response to it (these are those pesky working-class people that Joseph is reluctant to mention), i.e., Marxism, and anarchism. Perhaps he’s been on the fringe right-wing for so long studying conspiracism (which seems to be not so en vogue these days as evidenced by the popularity of this Zeitgeist thing) that he doesn’t know his history. For a movement to be “political,” it doesn’t require political parties and leadership; political movements can be non-hierarchical and have nothing to do with the state or, like anarchism, be against the state.

One would think that someone who is articulating a framework for overthrowing the State and capitalism that they would have done some research. Either Joseph is omitting the works of Marx and classical anarchism, i.e., the revolutionary aspects of what is called the Left, or he is simply omitting the history to appeal to a constituency that is of the extremist right. Think about the opposite scenario: let’s assume that I try to sell a scheme to the political Left that involves completely deregulated markets, dated ideas like the gold standard, condemn war because it isn’t cost-effective, seek to abolish all taxes and reduce the role of government, but never mention the history of lasaize-faire economics; I don’t think that the left would be as kind, and quickly point out that I am trying to pitch them a rehashed, watered-down version of capitalism.

A-historical accounts are troublesome in any regard. The American “progressive” community is quick to point out the criminal actions of Republican presidents like George W. Bush, but slow, or reticent, to discuss analogous and equally atrocious acts committed by presidents like JFK or Bill Clinton (the conspiracist right-wing is also reticent in regards to the former). For this, the so-called “progressives,” or the “left-of-center,” get nowhere and are not to be taken seriously. The Zeitgeist Movement is comparable in this regard.

Either Joseph doesn’t understand what a political movement is or, worse, this isn’t a political movement; the latter would suggest that the “activist arm” of the Venus Project is really just part of the larger, lucrative conspiracy industry that attracts an extremely alienated working-class to invest money in their pyramid schemes. To say that it is not a political movement would suggest that this is simply just a neat idea that is fun to read about; in this case, there is a vast body of futurist fiction, in which case, whatever one thinks about it, it is at least candid about the fact that it is science-fiction. If the former is true, then the Zeitgeist Movement represents vulgar utopian-ism.

Joseph and the Venus Project are proposing something radical: they are proposing that humanity, essentially, abolishes the nation-state, parliamentary bodies, and capitalism. There are many assumptions that can be made about the Zeitgeist Movement as such, but I will limit it to these for the moment: (1) Joseph and proponents of the Venus Project believe that they can achieve this new society through reforms (because to my knowledge they do not speak or write about a clash with the state, i.e., revolution); (2) they are coming from an angle that suggests that this will happen when there is a consciousness-shift, i.e., humans are too stupid and greedy to have this society at the moment; (3) they have a naïve assumption, and again, an a-historical stance on what happens to the working-class (does Joseph even mention them?) when they attempt to overthrow the bourgeois state, i.e., fascist private militias, concentration camps, murder of civilians en masse, etc., because they do not speak of revolution as such; or (4) the proponents of this top-down movement do not really view it as something attainable, resorting it to fiction or an interesting idea.

If the first assumption is true, i.e., that a technocratic society sans government and capitalism could be achieved through reform, then this movement is certainly not to be taken seriously. Is anyone really naïve enough to believe that abolishing the bourgeois nation-state and the arbitrary economic system that it resuscitates time-and-time again will be welcomed by the ruling-class ? This is, of course, nonsensical. But, to my knowledge, again, the Zeitgeist Movement has no class analysis, no politics, etc. It is agnostic on everything.

To perceive that this first sustainable city is built somehow, without the capitalists shutting it down any way they can, let us hypothetically extrapolate on the scenario: a city gets built in, we’re assuming, the Western world (because third-world US client-states would simply cut their heads off the second they said they were going to build an autonomous self-sustaining city) that is autonomous, has no allegiance to any government, any monetary system, and is completely off-the-grid. What is the first reaction that the State will have? Well, I would extrapolate that the national guard, Blackwater and other fascist, private militias, the police, the FBI, and probably every military force in the world would invade the city and murder everyone they can; this is if they do not simply drop missiles on the first sustainable city. This is the kind of defiance that the bourgeoisie has not tolerated, historically (see the Zapatista Movement and the Spanish Civil War).

Revolutionary social and political theories that historically come from class struggle in contrary to the development of capitalism are not naïve about this; these theories acknowledge that if revolution is to be successful, i.e., dismantling the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, there must be organized resistance among the majority of people (the working-class) and, an unfortunate matter, a clash with the State (if only in defense). Marx acknowledged the class struggle in he and Engel’s The Communist Manifesto, and believed that the history “of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles” (Marx & Engels). Further:

Freeman and slave, patrician and plebian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes. (Marx & Engels)

Marx’s acknowledgements are spot-on; it is his techniques on how to have revolution that many believed to be flawed. Marx favored an educated sect of the working-class, what he referred to as the dictatorship of the proletariat, running a transition state which would yield a stateless, classless, society, sans monetary systems (sounds a bit like the Zeitgeist Movement, no?).

Who, on the left, was to the contrary? The relevant sect of the early history of the labor movement, and that sect that was, in fact, contrary to Mr. Marx, was that of the anarchists and their respective movements. Without digressing into too much detail, we can give a brief overview as such showing the split in the 1870’s in the First International, or the International Working Men’s Association (excuse the dated, sexist preclusion of women radicals in the name). This was an anti-capitalist, international organization of the working class that was communistic and socialist, but there was a major difference within the organization: those that sided with Marx and Engels, and those that sided with anarchist Mikhail Bakunin (soon to become one of Marx’s loathed rivals). All were socialists, certainly (meaning, simply, they favored the means of production and political power being collectively owned by everyone), but the split came between the authoritarian and the libertarian socialists, the statist-wing and non-statist wing, respectively. Those libertarian-socialists came to represent a revolutionary philosophy that set out to dismantle capitalism, the State, and all other oppressive hierarchical structures; this was the philosophy of anarchism.

So, anarchism is certainly a political movement. Yes, it seeks no political party or major organization to govern the people, and abhors the notion of parliamentary, representative government. But it seeks to put political power in the hands of communities, through whatever means the communities deem appropriate, i.e., direct democracy, consensus, workers council, or even technocracies like Joseph condones. Perhaps this is what Joseph means to say: the Zeitgeist Movement does not seek to establish some kind of political party or organization, but it is certainly a political movement since it seeks to put the political power in everyone’s hands.

An anarchocentric critique of the Zeitgeist Movement doesn’t reject many of the ideas for which Joseph has presented. But there are major fallacies. Joseph has proposed a futurist society that will not appeal to everyone as the end-all solution to our problems. I certainly wouldn’t oppose a community like the one Joseph speaks of existing after a revolution that dismantled capitalism and the State; I utterly condone a pluralistic world with many different types of societies co-existing, as long as they are voluntary, and non-oppressive. Also, as mentioned, this is not something we can achieve, whether technocratic or a society ran according to anarcho-syndicalism principles, through reform, or an unprepared working class. As far as I’m concerned, if the majority of the working class is not participating in the movement, then the movement is not significant.

If the second principle is the case, i.e., they believe that such a grand scheme can only come about when there is a consciousness shift, or further evolution of the human species, well, this would be a simple case of a philosophy which condones some form of idealism and utopianism, and is not rooted in the pragmatic or material world. Comparatively, pacifists might tell the Palestinians to let Israeli aggressors slaughter them or their family, because pacifism is an ideal. Some hardliners would promote this nonsensical idea, while most anti-war activists acknowledge that the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves from aggressors.

This ideal suggests that capitalism is simply outdated; that the power-structures that enslave the working class and prevent them from a life of human solidarity and creativity, and destroys the environment through (Joseph acknowledges this) a profit-driven incentive that surpasses anything else.

Peter Joseph’s Analysis of Capital

This brings me to Joseph’s perception of the global economy. He defines the players involved as employers, employees, and consumers. And his perception is that the problem with these relationships is that capitalism is terribly inefficient. Joseph almost seems to place working-class individuals in the same realm as the bourgeoisie, explaining that they simply cannot reach a compromise. This is analogous to saying that those who run prisons cannot compromise with the prisoners. Those who currently own the means of production need not compromise; they have an army of desperate wage-slaves, ranging from neurosurgeons to janitors. Their job is to buy these wage-slaves labor on the cheap, and collect surplus value. Ironically, the capitalist does not use the means of production that she or he “owns.” This is an historical critique of capital and private property. Anti-authoritarians have criticized the idea that such an entity exists. Anarchists and libertarian Marxists agree that what one uses, one possesses. So, if a capitalist “owns” a chunk of property and employs 80 wage-slaves who use his means of production daily, the anarchist or libertarian Marxist feels that the wage slaves possess the means of production that the capitalist technically “owns.” A thoughtful critique of private property is missing in Joseph’s analysis. Does Joseph think that the property owners, whether the State or private owners, will tolerate him using their land to build an off-the-grid city that is not affiliated with the State or capital? Certainly, he is not this naïve. If he is suggesting that people buy up property to do this, then it is simply liberal reform. This is the same elitist stance that liberals take; they believe that if we simply consume less, eat organic, and ride a bike, we can moralize a morally bankrupt system, i.e., capitalism. I would see little difference if property-owners bought land in bulk to build such cities. Joseph will have to develop his analysis, because it is unlikely that the bourgeois State will allow his utopia to coexist. Joseph is correct: capitalism is inefficient and will most certainly destroy the planet left to its own cancerous devises. But his lack of class-analysis connotes that he’s never seriously studied capitalist critique. I suppose this is a good thing, that people inherently see the flaws in capitalism, but when one has a platform speaking of these ills as if they happen in a vacuum, I find it quite troubling.

When the words “wage-slavery,” “subordination,” and, perhaps most importantly, “private property” are missing from a critique of capital, it begs many questions, and suggests liberalism and reformism, like the social democrats attempts to create a “green” capitalism.

Zeitgeist’s Value and Optimism

I n this essay, I could be perceived as one who has written the Zeitgeist Movement off as conspiracist drivel; mostly I have. However, at the crux of it, there are anarchistic connotations. Who’s to say that this is not prefigurative politics, i.e., the idea of building a new world in the shell of the old? Or, who could argue that, if this truly was a decentralized, non-hierarchical free-space for people, it is not striving to build a dual power structure? Both prefigurative politics and dual-power building are both anarchistic tendencies, and I argue the Zeitgeist Movement could be that.

Also, certainly environmental degradation subordinates the majority of human beings who would not destroy the planet left to their own vices to the miniscule percent of the population of property owners who are destroying the planet. Joseph is addressing these problems, and a majority of his audience is coming from the conspiracy industry that predominantly believes global-warming is a hoax created to perpetuate socialism through carbon tax (no, I’m not kidding).

The fact that a constituency who bought ultra-extreme ideology for so long seems to be accepting of the sustainable technocracy for which Joseph is a proponent is certainly less-worse. But is the technocratic metropolis something that can ever be sustainable? Has “Zeitgeist” thought outside the box, or would Fresco’s sustainable city be every bit as alienating as our current “cities?” Further, can we reach sustainability without creating new paradigms? I believe it is doubtful.

I think praxes that explain “This is the way to freedom!” can be interesting; there are certainly other examples of classical anarchists like James Guillame and Peter Kropotkin writing specifically about their ideal communities, or even Michael Albert with his intricately planned “Parecon” idea (whatever one may think of it). I do believe, however, that the rigidity of a plan can alienate anti-authoritarians, and perhaps Joseph should sympathize with all people who are opposed to capital and state; this should be the area on which we focus instead of focusing on our ideal new society. I am not suggesting we should not try to build alternative institutions like co-ops and free spaces for everyone; this is the kind of work we should certainly take part in. But we need not focus all of our time on someone’s specific praxis and ideal about a future society. It is crucial to understand for these ideal future societies to exist, we must dismantle the oppressive authoritarian institutions that prohibit Joseph’s scientific green city, or my ideal communist society. This is where our activism, and certainly our creativity, should focus.

Further, it could be argued that it is wasted effort writing about something so insignificant like Zeitgeist. It is, after all, weak in theory, and seems to come from a film-maker who realized that the conspiracism that made his first video so popular is losing momentum (this is certainly a good thing that the alienated, mostly white males, who patronized the intellectually bankrupt industry of distraction seem to be abandoning it). But it is sort of quasi-anarchistic, and quite popular. This gives libertarians, whether Marxian or anarchist, an opportunity to discuss their ideas with people who may have previously been unsympathetic to anarchism. It can be a nice segue, like “You know, this whole Zeitgeist thing is pretty close to anarchism.”

I am not suggesting that libertarians should be missionaries, always trying to recruit new worshipers. But it is an opportunity to create dialogue, which is of the upmost importance. Anti-authoritarian politics should not be tucked away in a dusty closet. With the popularity of the Zeitgeist movement, this dialogue could happen on a large scale. And that is why Joseph’s work is a significant piece of pop-culture.

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The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: 21stcentury on Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:53 PM UTC
You say that "Marx favored an educated sect of the working-class, what he referred to as the dictatorship of the proletariat..."

I challenge you to provide a direct quote for this! Marx was not an elitist!

The closest that Marx comes to saying DictProl is this from the Manifesto:

"We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy.

The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production..."

full:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/...o/ch02.htm

The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Admin on Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 12:16 AM UTC
Several quick criticisms:

The author starts by saying that this Zeitgeist movement is "ubiquitous." Please look this word up in the dictionary. The fans of this movie may be numerous in your local political circles, but they are not *widespread* in the anarchist movement and certainly not in the greater society at large. Your sample size is too small to call this movement ubiquitous.

I think you should refer to these folks who are into the Zeitgeist film as fans and not as a movement.

I don't see what is to be gained by engaging with Zetigeist fans in any discussion about radical politics. Based on my long experience as an anarchist activist, I've rarely seen anybody who is into conspiracy theories make a shift into radical politics. Of course, some people who are attracted to thing like Zeitgeist are questioning how the system works, but the fact that they are buying into the sloppy analysis presented by Zeitgeist should be a warning flag. I think that political radicals should be better spend their time talking to average working people. It's like how anarchists waste so much time debating with statist leftists. Waste of time.

Chuck0
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Why on Monday, August 10 2009 @ 11:42 PM UTC
TZM is really TVP, most people don't even put much weight on the arguments in Zeitgeist Addendum, and instead implement their own conceptions here and there. Go to their IRC channel or their forums and you will find many anti-capitalists, though. And there are a lot of them, all around the world. While "ubiquitious" might be a bit premature, they are a very very large movement and have an impact on internet existance.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Kubuguy on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 04:47 PM UTC
Yeah, this is the kind of attitude that is responsible for "radical politics" to actually never get anywhere. Shut off, ignore everything else and live in your virtual bubble ... sounds like a plan, not. :)

What about actually engaging people and discussion? Your negative attitude is going to be the downfall of everything you do otherwise. Communication is the key.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: rechelon on Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 01:26 AM UTC
"...immediately connotes hierarchy since it puts all of its faith in science, hence scientists. Since some will be more apt than others towards science, this could easily give us a new bureaucracy."

Jesus fucking christ. Some 'will be more apt than others' towards logic. That doesn't mean we should throw out our faith in logic. Think before you fucking speak.

The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: ISHI on Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 03:59 AM UTC
bakunin and majietsch (sic---a polish anarchist) made this criticism of scientists and technocratic elites, and even if it is not required that logic and science are only used to create hierarchy, control, weapons, etc. too often they are. So the critique stands (and one can go take it to its conlusion, eg Zerzan, or Artaud, and throw out language, number, math and music (since it too leads to a hierarchy --- eg 'kill all rock stars') as 'unnatural' and against the 'natural order' of non-authoritarianism, where lambs sleep with lions and noone needs the good book (the first thing was the word) or any books for that matter and there is free FNB pizza delivered to the garden of eden ).

also the author of this piece seems not to take an anti-logic position but to point out the critique which apparently zeitgeist has.

i ran into this tax resistor, freedom to fascism (movie) type into the venus project . he is also a black nationalist. speaking of interesting types.

i have never heard of this group, so it sounds like hype.
why even give them free PR given their obvious shortcomings?

but for people really interested in what may be a really, non-hype scientific movement, the one popular in my area (which i don't 100% endorse but i'm seriouslty checking it out) is

http://www.scienceoflivingonline.com

or how bout the ever popular (on the web it is #1 in terms of most unique web visits ever, in terms of the uniqueness of those who visit)

www.axiomsandchoices.blogspot.com

The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Kubuguy on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 05:02 PM UTC
"and even if it is not required that logic and science are only used to create hierarchy, control, weapons, etc. too often they are"

Yeah, your hands are also used to create hierarchy. Are you going to cut them off to everybody in anarchy?

What about thinking about CAUSES of hierarchy instead of means to achieve it. Ever occurred to you to think about it that way? It has to some ... they are the ones who devised the Venus Project. "We" think about causes not symptoms, that's what makes TZM unique.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Why on Monday, August 10 2009 @ 11:40 PM UTC
Yeah, the problem with TZM has little to do with most of the authors points, it's more about how information sharing takes a backseat, how exclusive group think becomes the norm and is satisfactory.

It is essentially a Technocratic movement rather than a Free Software / Hardware movement, and thus cannot succeed. However, if individuals within TZM chose to utilize the Free Software / Hardware movement in the future we'll be getting somewhere, because it is admittedly a whole bunch of people. A whole bunch.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Kubuguy on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 04:56 PM UTC
TZM essentially IS free software/hardware movement, it just takes it a bit further and constructs a coherent vision based on those principles. RBE is natural extension of free s/h movement ...
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Why on Friday, August 14 2009 @ 11:36 PM UTC
No it isn't. TVP has *no* implementation details. In fact Jacque Fresco often talks about technologies that are not practical, and most assuredly non-existant. A discussion on mineral extraction is far more valueable than a discussion on morphing buildings that don't (and will not) exist. You will find that free hardware people have only a passing familiarity with TVP, indeed, their views are of implementation here and now and right this very second. As the old quote goes, "Proof of concept and running code, you have revolution." TVP wants us to pay it money to build a proof of concept and there's no guarantee that said proof of concept would ever emancipate us from our chains. Indeed, the likelihood, since it is operating within the confines of the capitalist system, is that contractors and engineers hired to do the work would wind up patenting their inventions, having no-compete contracts, and overall shafting TVPs "sample city" in the end through lawsuits and other things. In the end the results would not be as good as we'd want.

This is not to say that TZM does not have individuals within it who ascribe to the free philosophy, it is merely that they are only composed of it incidentially. I spent months observing and being part of TZM and I can say this with a certainity. There *are* fascists and there *are* authoritarians within the overall movement. In fact, the leaders of various parts of TZM are explicit fascists in the Technocratic sense.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: ScavengerType on Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 03:55 AM UTC
as an anarchist/economist I feel like I've rolled my eyes a full 360 degrees looking at the neo-liberals and the libertarians. Libertarians are trying to re birth themselves thru this movie. Forgive me if you start to rant of the problems of "the fed" as I'm quite knowledgeable of central banking. The neo-liberal's exploitation made me doubly so to be aware of it's drawbacks and gains.

However I fail to understand the libertarian's end experience of this 360 degree turn of my eyes. They seem to take it as a stupefied stare, when I'm really thinking how can you beli3eve this drivel? Why haven't you listened to any economists on the issue?

Ya know Marx was quite well read when it came to his economic forefathers and competitors. I've only read part one of capital from librivox.org, but I suspect that discounting him from public discourse of economics would be a grave error.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Alex Bradshaw on Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 10:47 AM UTC
"I challenge you to provide a direct quote for this!"

21 Century, I would argue that you provided the information that backs up my claim. Since Marx connotes that the proletariat should become the ruling class, this immediately connotes hierarchy, hence some spectacular specimen of the working class. Marx does have more libertarian writings, but this is what I was referring to when I said Marx favored an educated sect of the working class to "lead" during the state transition to communism. So, I stand by what I said about Marx.

"Please look this word up in the dictionary."

Admin, in addition to your patronizing tone, I also beg to differ with you. The Zeitgeist Movement (and I call it that because, well, that's what it's called) has gained a great deal of momentum. Certainly, they are just fans of the films, but I never claimed that the "movement" presented anything serious. It intrigues me when conspiracism gains popularity in society; it speaks to the level of alienation.

And I never mentioned anti-authoritarians being interested in it. The article that I read about "Zeitgeist" claimed that anarchists were traveling around the country promoting it; I wanted to counter this by saying "Zeitgeist" is not an anarchist movement, and has large problems. This prompted me to write this essay. It is a popular idea with a great deal of youth. Its internet presence is huge. I've met many non-political people who are interested in the movement in my place of employment and elsewhere. How else might you define "ubiquitous?" If it makes you feel better, I'll say "In my town, the movement is everywhere."

I also never said that individuals interested in "Zeitgeist" were abundant amongst anarchists. Did you actually read the piece? I thought conspiracist critique might be of interest on Infoshop, especially from an anti-authoritarian perspective. Again, I didn't say they're widespread in my personal political circles, and never said it's more important to engage with conspiracy theorists than with working-class people (I didn't say this because I agree with you on the matter); you're putting words in my mouth.

I do not think we should try to pull conspiracy theorists over to our side; most have a latent sense of racism and nationalism. I was making a point that, with all of its flaws, "Zeitgeist" is a sea change for the industry. So, if one gets in a conversation about "Zeitgeist," one could easily discuss anti-authoritarian ideas.

"Think before you fucking speak."

Rechelon, you've clearly misunderstood what I'm trying to say in regards to science. Maybe I was clunky with my phrasing; I'll give you that. What I was trying to say is this: I wouldn't want a society in which auto mechanics, dentists, florists, the working-class, or SCIENTISTS, become the secular priesthood, or the rulers, of society. It's not an anti-science stance. I'm certainly in favor of science, and I would like to think that in an anti-authoritarian society, science is something that would ultimately become much more participatory and richer. But, like "Zeitgeist," I do not think that society should be dictated by a certain brand of science and technology. I don't know why I'm wasting my time with you,though; your tone suggests that you want no dialogue (when you try to belittle people, this is implied). And like the prior user, you're putting words in my mouth. I never suggested that we should throw out science. I'm no primitivist.

"why even give them free PR given their obvious shortcomings?"

Again, I wonder if people read the whole piece before they critique it. If you don't want to read something, that's fair. But to critique it without reading it or omitting certain parts is dishonest. Here's what I wrote in regards to the aforementioned statement:

[I]t could be argued that it is wasted effort writing about something so insignificant like Zeitgeist. It is, after all, weak in theory, and seems to come from a film-maker who realized that the conspiracism that made his first video so popular is losing momentum (this is certainly a good thing that the alienated, mostly white males, who patronized the intellectually bankrupt industry of distraction seem to be abandoning it). But it is sort of quasi-anarchistic, and quite popular. This gives libertarians, whether Marxian or anarchist, an opportunity to discuss their ideas with people who may have previously been unsympathetic to anarchism. It can be a nice segue, like “You know, this whole Zeitgeist thing is pretty close to anarchism.”
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: rechelon on Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 04:57 PM UTC
"Maybe I was clunky with my phrasing..."

Alright, fair enough. I can appreciate your restated position. Faith in science =/= faith in whoever the fuck is appointing themselves "scientists." But you'll have to forgive me for being snappish given the words that you actually wrote. I have very little tolerance for such sloppy arguments and they certainly are rife enough in our movement.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: ISHI on Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 07:32 PM UTC
' a huge web presence'---compared to what? its nice to think you can proslyticze amongst some sort of garbage half brained group' but you know --- tired of that-- hit the road.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Why on Monday, August 10 2009 @ 11:38 PM UTC
The TZM website arguably has more users than the whole of all the anarchist oriented websites on the whole planet. That's a pretty big deal so I don't see what's so controversial about the authors arguments.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Admin on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 12:33 AM UTC
I'd be cautious about underestimating how many readers anarchist websites have. You'd be surprised.

The last time we checked our stats a year ago, Infoshop had around 150,000 unique visitors each month.

Chuck
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Kubuguy on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 04:40 PM UTC
The zeitgeist movie was seen by 50,000,000 people on youtube alone so I wouldn't underestimate that either ;)

But this is not some pissing match in numbers. Your attitude of "not giving a PR" is telling though. So you're for freedom and free exchange of ideas, right?
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Kubuguy on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 04:53 PM UTC
I meant ISHI by that PR comment, he made it earlier. Such a progressive attitude ... haha, no wonder I've never actually heard from any anarchist. They don't speak, don't discuss and don't do PR lol

As you may have noticed it brought quite a few TZM members here ;)
So behave yourself :D
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Alex Bradshaw on Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 11:31 AM UTC
I would add the following, 21century, to strengthen my analysis that Marx favored an educated sect of the working-class:


The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the lines of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: Formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.

I would add that I'm not some knee-jerk anti-Marxist. I find a great deal of Marxist literature, and Marxists, enjoyable. But I do think that ultimately Marx veered towards authoritarianism.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: 21stcentury on Monday, August 10 2009 @ 07:04 AM UTC
I'm not sure if I'm going to get you to admit that you are wrong in claiming that Marx used something as crass as "dictatorship of the proletariat" - at least everyone can see that Marx actually said "despotic inroads..." - but wait, he didn't say "despotic inroads... in personal freedom" (which is what DOTP implies) - Marx said "despotic inroads on the rights of property..."

How do you propose to have an egalitarian society if you don't impose limits on the rights of property?

Marx, ever the realist, goes even further, "...and on the conditions of bourgeois production..."

How do you propose to have an egalitarian society if you don't radically change the conditions of "bourgeois production" ie workers making commodoties and capitalists usurping the profit.

Maybe you're not "some knee-jerk anti-Marxist", but you are not fair when you mis-represent his ideas. Try using more direct quotes.

As for your latest quote above, the Communist Manifesto was written for the First International, so when he talks about "Communists...the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class ..." he's referring to all the active members of that body and further, he is trying to raise our work to the highest common denominator - not the lowest common denominator of someone just wishing that Capitalism go away - but actual, motivated agents for change.

If this is the boogy-man "authoritarianism" - then so be it. But as the whole world can see (and read Marx's actual words) - how are we going to replace Capitalism, if the working class doesn't start demanding their rights.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Why on Monday, August 10 2009 @ 11:35 PM UTC
I wrote about TZM and formed similar objections, but on different grounds from my personal experience within the movement.

Well, it looks like Peter Joseph is becoming quite the popular guy. "TZM" is gaining ground and it does have a lot of merit to it. Some things I've found while researching the "movement" and such.

Pros:
* Most people seem to accept the problems with monetarism, and have a good acceptance of technology.
* There are quite a few people who are trying to create their own "self-sufficient" towns or cities or communities, that are not tech averse (this is different from "intentional communities" that attempt to simply be low agrarian with monetary aspects and no desire to be self-sufficient).
* The people are generally very friendly and defensive of anti-monetarist ideas, that is, they "get it" and there's a lot of energy within their ranks.
* The ideas of Jacque Fresco are good.
* In some people there is no necessary need to 'be' TZM, that is, the ideas are beyond the "movement," and people are exploring their own ideas which are incidentially TZM related (though by no means exclusive to them).
* Some people in the movement are anarchists.
* Some are desiring to share information and technologies for implementation.

Cons:
*The ideas of Jacque Fresco are very bad. His "solution" is monetarist, funding for a "sample city" to get things going. Much of "the movements" money goes to Jacque Fresco and Peter Joseph. They will not achieve what they want in Fresco's life, and certainly Joseph is not going to get anywhere with regards to actual implementation.
* Most people are caught up in monetarism itself, many want to start capitalist businesses to fund their ventures. I have found this to be a dead end route. The "New Z-Land" project does not prioritize technological self-sufficiency except in passing, and it sounds like an "intentional community" with technology.
TZM's lawyers are not very nice if you use their 'name.' (Apparently they're defending rights to the words "Zeitgeist Movement.")
Many of those in the movement are pro-government, some are even pro-fascism (there has been discussion of having cameras in every town every road every building of their society).
* Jacque Fresco is against information sharing, there is absolutely no evidence that a plan even exists, but that this is more a funding opportunity to actually create a plan. This property has fallen upon many in the movement, so that they are against information sharing themselves (as far as actual implementation goes).

More here: http://flag.blackened.net/forums/view...mp;t=75461
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Why on Monday, August 10 2009 @ 11:46 PM UTC
The Free Software / Free Hardware movement is more in line with anarchist principles: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/%22Die_...ee_Thought
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: ISHI on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 06:16 PM UTC
i mean, Why not? zeitgeist sortuh combines the best of lyndon larouche and john zerzan. they want to 'pull in' greenpeace to the 'movement' so long as that group realizes that 'monetarism' is the problem (update your cookbooks!!!). (also, send cash, its nonprophet.)
whoah.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Why on Friday, August 14 2009 @ 11:40 PM UTC
"Send cash, we want to build an example city, no refunds or guarantees that results will be free for all to use."

That is the Technocratic position, it is authoritarian to the core. I actually met self-professed eugenic supporters while talking to TZM people. It is alarming to say the least.

In the end there *are* very good people and there *are* anarchists, though. We should seperate them however.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Veggamattic on Tuesday, August 11 2009 @ 01:38 AM UTC
Although I don't believe that The Venus Project has any chance at long term success for a variety of mathematical reasons (my specialty)...I do agree with The Zeitgeist movements root theory which is that Capitalism has gone to far and run it's practical coarse and we need something new.

The problem with your well informed and interestingly written critique is that you know too much about political history and not enough about creating a logical political eventuality.

The antiquated concepts that you referred to endlessly need not have any relevance in a newly configured plan. Neither should people like yourself who dwell far to much on history and don't put there obviously above average minds into creating structure that does work. Who the fuck cares about the semantics of whether or not TZM is to be considered a political movement or not. You are just wasting your time and effort with that part of your analysis.

Some of your comments were insightful but the overall concept of your critique was tiring.

The biggest problem with people that run for office is that they are interested in politics! Not creating new root political theory. Nothing in political history has ever really worked because too many people were just to busy copying other losers.

The only reason that political history should even be analyzed is so that the few good concepts generated by various political policies can be scrutinized by open minded participants, selected through a system of expert committee consensus and amalgamated as part of a new well crafted hybrid process.

Put down your news media. Put down you history books and focus on what is possible.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Ovie on Tuesday, August 11 2009 @ 10:10 PM UTC
My name is Leo from Argentina.You could say I'm an anarchist on the TZM.

First of all I want to clarify some misconceptions about the movement.

1)All the events that Peter Joseph runs are non-profit.
2)It is a movement spreading fast. Communism and anarchism are obsolete.And they are bad words for most of the public.
The Venus Project is something that most of the people will agree on, high efficiency and access to goods and services for everybody. If you think that's not possible, then I encourage you to do research on geothermal energy, hyrponics, nanotechnology and automation.
3)Zeitgeist is not a Conspiracy movement!!
Peter Joseph HAD a conspiracy theory background and he changed when he met Jacque Fresco.
I quote from our forum:

"He is also under the very strong impression that the first movie (Zeitgeist - The Movie) was made specifically for this movement, when most of us are very aware that it was just a side project he (Peter Joseph) did before he had ever heard of The Venus Project. His eventual intro to TVP caused him to go back into the studio and produce "Zeitgeist: Addendum" to better bring these ideas of Jacque's to the rest of us. Peter hasn't divorced himself from the first one (nor should he), but he has repeatedly stated that it's time for the movement to move past that so we can get busy with the things that matter towards the future of our fragile planet. To have a writer focus solely on the first movie is an awesome blunder."

---
To me the Venus Project takes the best of communism, anarchism , and technocracy and presents it.
Also, there are strong ideas of human behaviour, culture, and system of values that many social movements haven't taken into a account.
You can have a perfect system but if you don't change your values then you go back to the beggining.
If you want to know what this movement is about you should check the Movement Orientation Guide.That's were it is really put altogheter with no conspiracy theories.
Sadly, this forum won't let me link it but look it up on google.
--
I think you people should be open to this.Because it's a great chance to wake people up and really put pressure on the stablishment.
Ideas that can get the general public going. If people hear anarchy or communism they go crazy.
Let's face, anarchism is dead. Sadly it is.
The venus project is an evolution of anarchism.It's the way to achieve it.
Cheers.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, August 13 2009 @ 05:46 PM UTC
I'm kind of disturbed that a conspiracy movie has morphed into some kind of social change "movement." It's like people have chucked a century of radical social theory and social struggle for some half-baked version of the DaVinci Code.

I took a look at the website referred to in several posts. I can see it has lots of users and traffic. I looked at the page for the "Venus Project." I don't see anything anarchist about the Venus Project, which looks like yet another attempt to get humanity to adopt some pre-planned utopia envisioned by one guy and a bunch of his fans. I think that the best critique of the Venus Project, albeit indirectly, is the book "Seeing Like a State" by James Scott. Scott's book has an incredible analysis about aesthetic schemes to transform human societies. All of these schemes eventually fail or turn into something not so great for the people who have to live within these "visions."

And some of the architecture depicted in the Venus Project looks like it was designed for the remake of Logan's Run.

Chuck0
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Why on Friday, August 14 2009 @ 11:45 PM UTC
1 in 10 people within TZM care about the original Zeitgeist movie. As a utopian vision TZM is probably overboard (especially when people start talking about AIs controlling systems and camera culture, etc), I would be more likely to ascribe to the free hardware movement, but I wouldn't reject TZM outright because they will also utilize part of the free hardware movement in due time, and they're a valueable constituancy. What is necessary in the future is to seperate technocracy from statism, which is something that is lacking within the overall movement.
The Problem With Zeitgeist
Authored by: Kubuguy on Wednesday, August 12 2009 @ 01:48 PM UTC
Mr. Bradshaw, I have problems with posting comments, it keeps deleting it as spam for whatever reason. Please read it at our site here: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/j...=20#167610

Thanks