California: Vengeance, Out Now

Authored by: GPAC on Thursday, January 01 2009 @ 11:53 PM UTC

AAAHAHAHAHAHA

i lost my mind when i saw this.

i'll kill a communist for fun, but for a green card...i'll carve him up real nice.

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Authored by: HPWombat on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 07:29 AM UTC

Awesome!

More stuff like this!

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embrace the dork side

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Authored by: HPWombat on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 07:51 AM UTC

This is probably the best thing to come out from U.S. anarchists in a long time. What makes it good is its attempt to remain in a dichotomous relationship with domination and control. This is better than than motherfucker theory.

This is also better than "post-civ" bullshit and it breaks through a lot of problems that autonomist theory suffers from within an American context..mainly to loss of conflict when the language of conflict enters middle class discourse, post-civ being an example of this bullshit.

The exterior relationship of working class anarchists suggested in this pamphlet would be an excellent experiment if people are lucky enough to fall within such circles.

I'll pass this around to my old buddies that haven't left this world and see what they think. I'm getting older, so I'd like to see how these views can be translated by my working class friends, many or most have kids and families.



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embrace the dork side

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Authored by: collective(a) on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 02:23 PM UTC

This type of writing and propaganda is counterproductive and elitist. I don't understand why I always have to remind people how small the (@) movement in the U.S. really is, and yet people still insist on infighting to further divide our movement and make it even more insignificant and stuck in the periphery. Can't we just all admit that we are going to have differences of opinion on what is effective and what isn't (as we always will in a society of diversity and plurality), and instead of shutting each other out and alienating one another we should instead be finding ways to act in solidarity and unity despite different ideas of tactics. These types of "more macho than thou" anarchists are just as bad as the liberals who condemn anarchists for being violent.

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Authored by: adidas on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 04:23 PM UTC

i liked this zine a lot. i don't understand how this person vocalizing their frustrations on the alienation they feel from the middle-class trends in anarchism is any more "counter-productive" and "elitist" than labelling this person (and all people like him, such as myself) as "more macho than thou" (whatever that anarchist PC buzzword of the week means anymore) and comparing it to liberalism.

this person chose to write something that was abrasive and may have made certain people in the anarchist movement feel like they were shut out or alienated, but nobody ever talks about how those same people make people like *US* feel that same way through indirect and passive aggression (also another trait of middle class socialization).

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Authored by: intifada-oner on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 05:02 PM UTC

opinions are capitalist, ideas are revolutionary.

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Authored by: flagbat on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 06:16 PM UTC

I don't know about your "movement", but you're the only one with a negative opinion of this project who felt compelled to comment on what myself and apparently some others feel is a fine publication.
You appointed yourself the One who has to "remind people how small the (@) movement in the U.S. really is", look to end "infighting" by bickering, and condemn the author's ideas and perspective, while talking about accepting differences of opinion and "diversity of tactics". Reminds me of the person who had all the answers when it came to the rioting in Augusta, GA, but wouldn't share any of them. We don't need another boss.
I'm still not sure why any kind of escalation of class warfare beyond intentional arrest is branded as "macho". No one has offered up a satisfactory explanation to me yet, much like the people who tell me jesus died for my sins, it just doesn't compute.

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Authored by: Al Ligator on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 02:58 PM UTC

Awesome zine!
I like the personal edge it has, it's not just some communique or vague theory, so while it is about your life, and common struggles we have, it can be a good starting point for discussion with other working-class anarchists to have about how they feel about these problems, and other problems that arise, and what we can do about them.
I often feel alienated by this movement as a working-class person, and it's nice for people to begin talking about that.
May the discussions begin!

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Authored by: crudo on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 07:16 PM UTC

For many of the people with criticisms of Vengeance I feel like I don't have to respond as of yet, because most of the flak hasn't really manifested itself into a critique of the text or what I feel to be the overall point of some of the ideas expressed within it. I encourage people to write me at: modanarcho@yahoo.com if they want to have a discussion however, and I will try and respond to some stuff on this board.

One thing I will state however is that the small amount of feedback that I have been getting from people who identify as 'working class' and as anarchists/anti-state communists etc, has been along the lines of "fuck yeah, about fucking time!" Which is awesome. I'm glad I could give some people a shot in the arm and make them smile. Let this be the start of us finding each other and becoming powerful within a milieu that thrives on hushed voices and downcast eyes.

I'll try and respond to this:

"This type of writing and propaganda is counterproductive and elitist. I don't understand why I always have to remind people how small the (@) movement in the U.S. really is, and yet people still insist on infighting to further divide our movement and make it even more insignificant and stuck in the periphery." -

I don't deny (in fact I embrace and make it very clear) that a lot of the points in the zine are very hostile and many will be turned off by them. I make it a point in saying that I am drawing lines in the sand. While I think many people will be rubbed the wrong way, I also think that this is good for those of us who feel alienated often within anarchism as a movement, at least in the US. My point is not to create infighting however; it is to expose the differences in opinion and strategy that in my mind exist. As my comrades in the US based insurrectionary magazine A Murder of Crows wrote, "We are interested in communicating with people, not excommunicating them." That is why I am interested in dialoging with people, not writing them off AS PEOPLE. Like I state in the zine, despite many differences I have with many anarchists, as people I think they are bad ass and would bust mad chills and fight in a variety of struggles with them at any time. Having said that, I think we should be clear with each other on where we differ in theory, strategy, where we are coming from, etc. If the majority of what comes out of contemporary North American anarchism pisses me off, makes me gag, and also really has no relevance to my life, then I think that is a point that needs to be made and explored. Sometimes you have to pull a scab off for the wound to heal, (or maybe you don't, but that sounds like a nice metaphor).

"Can't we just all admit that we are going to have differences of opinion on what is effective and what isn't (as we always will in a society of diversity and plurality), and instead of shutting each other out and alienating one another we should instead be finding ways to act in solidarity and unity despite different ideas of tactics." -

This might sound mean, but why should I act in solidarity and unity with people who in my mind I don't have unity and solidarity with. I'd rather help a homeless family kick in the door to the foreclosed home behind my house than serve vegetables at Food Not Bombs. That's just me. Now if the people involved in a project like FNB are doing cool stuff that I am down with, I'll be there in a heartbeat. But just because someone says they are an anarchist and are doing an 'anarchist project' does not automatically mean that I am in solidarity and unity with them.

"These types of "more macho than thou" anarchists are just as bad as the liberals who condemn anarchists for being violent."" -

I'm not interested in people becoming more macho, I'm interested in becoming more powerful - getting more agency. I think this can be acquired in a variety of ways. Anyone who knows the Modesto crew (which is not saying in the slightest that everyone that is an @ from Modesto agrees with me...) knows that we are made up of women and men, from working class backgrounds. I feel that simply stating that I'm just trying to get people to be more macho also discredits many of the women I've met who are also fed up with a lot of the bullshit that passes as anarchism today and want to see something that is more directly related and based around their day to day lives. Desiring a politic of confrontation, street level organization, and action will often make many people label you as 'macho,' but machismo is probably the farthest thing from what I really desire.

holla if ya hear me

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Authored by: notverycreative on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 12:18 AM UTC

I think you have a lot of interesting things to say in this zine crudo and I am definitely feeling a lot of it, even if I don't agree 100% with how you went about it. My primary criticism, however, is that it seems like you spend a lot of time slagging off community activist projects and then go on to propose (slightly more confrontational) community activist projects as the solution. If we're going to talk about our class I think we need to figure out how to get it organized on a more serious level, more serious than having block parties and thieving groups can provide anyway. I also don't think the street gang sort of mentality you propose has much to offer us outside of close friend circles and, even there, some of it just seems like a bad idea.

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Authored by: Dead End on Friday, January 02 2009 @ 10:02 PM UTC

Really diggin it, brings up a lot of things I've been thinking. I actually would have been more brutal myself, though. Good work.

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Authored by: nostalgia on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 12:48 AM UTC

Good zine, though I do have a few objections to the content. From the parts I have read, it unfortunately seems to me that the author largely is relying on inflammatory language in order to make actions that are more MILITANT than others appear to be more RADICAL. While I agree with most of the ideas stated, I find this unconscious substitution to be quite problematic.

An example "By this I mean being the "shining example" to the people as many a food not bombs... have sought to educate the dumb masses... those pesky poor people will know what mutual aid is once the anarchists show them how... it unites them in a shared project and gets them used to working with one another. But so does a lot of other stuff such as graffiti, putting up posters, breaking windows, learning how to fight together, taking over a squat, beating up nazis in groups, etc"

Despite the obviously problematic assumption that people do Food Not Bombs to "educate the dumb masses" is the very dangerous association with Food Not Bombs with the middle class. The author has done a terrible job in making a feasible connection between a given action and the class to which it belongs. Don't middle class activists put up posters (wow, so radical) and learn to fight together?

Moreover, I don't understand the tacit assertion that fighting nazis and breaking windows are somehow more radical (this is implied by the author's insistence on leaving behind certain actions for ones that better build class power) than participating in food not bombs. I have been involved in an active ARA chapter for years, and I don't see how most of the work we do chasing around nazis is truly radical. It's great that anarchists fight nazis. So did the US military. Unfortunately, fighting the most reactionary elements in our society does nothing to contest alienated labor, commodity exchange, and state power. In short, it doesn't truly threaten the system.

While trying desperately hard to be radically different than middle class anarchists, Crudo falls into one of their most unfortunate tendencies, that is, the assertion that once people begin to take action in ways that demonstrate a radical awareness that he does not agree with it is no longer possible for them to be working class.

Just as Crudo correctly defined the working class as "those that survive by selling their labor for wages and those whose 'work' reproduces the system in similar ways... many think that because they have an I-pod and a laptop that they have risen above the lowly shit workers. But they are wrong", I'd like to reiterate the fact that one's class position is based upon their relationship to the economy. Engaging in a certain action doesn't make one "middle class" if they are exploited by the economy. This type of reasoning is reminiscent of the accusations leveled by right wing pundits for decades that radicals are "spoiled middle class kids" with no regard to their actual relationship to capital. Subsequently, it is ridiculous to label an anarchist "middle class" simply because they take a form of action that isn't in line with your desires. I feel that Crudo has a profound comprehension of the nature of class, yet opts to ignore this comprehension when it suits his arguments.

How is it that Food Not Bombs falls victim to the aspersion that it "sought to educate the dumb masses" while "breaking windows" is heralded as being desirable working class action? Isn't "breaking windows" often subject to a desire to teach the masses? A common motive for many of the actions of insurrectionary anarchists has been to ignite a fire within the working class through action, in short, to "educate the dumb masses". We all know that isolated instances of property destruction are not harmful to the capitalism, but that if such behavior became popular it would be a threat to the economy. Therefore, can't this action be construed in the same light as "anarcho activism", that is, in the sense that both can be derided as desiring to motivate the working class by showing people an example?

I am fond of the tone of the zine, however, as it appears to be honest, and non-pretentious. It's reminiscent of the "stream of consciousness" style in a sense, it's as though Crudo didn't worry as much about sounding academic as he did about communicating exactly what they were thinking.

My main concern is that the zine's attempts at reaching a profound critique of anarchist actions, while being notable, fall short of their goal. They are half-critiques, that is, they deride a given action while praising another action which falls victim to the same fundamental problems as the first action, the main difference being that the latter appears angrier, more illegal, or tougher than the former.

I definitely applaud Crudo for the attempt and finding alternatives to problematic actions, though I wish the actions that were suggested wouldn't have had the same problems. I'm glad that someone is willing to be honest about their feelings toward the anarchist movement. I concur with the majority of the sentiment of this zine, as I am utterly disgusted with the liberal tendencies within anarchism, and the failure of the anarchist movement to become a revolutionary component within the working class.

This zine is a great contribution to the anarchist tendency, I hope their will be more like it.

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Authored by: nostalgia on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 02:39 AM UTC

"I'd rather help a homeless family kick in the door to the foreclosed home behind my house than serve vegetables at Food Not Bombs"

That's nice.

But seriously, doesn't this example fall victim to the same problematic dynamic for which you lambasted Food Not Bombs? Helping people squat is a very valuable act, however, it can carry with it a relationship in which a radical attempts to, in your own words "educate the dumb masses" by showing them how to take action. If you were squatting with the probably hypothetical but hopefully real family, my critique wouldn't be so valid.

I see what you are trying to convey, I just don't understand why you insist on mocking certain actions as being irrelevant, "middle class", or whatever else, while proposing actions that sound angrier but still create the same fundamental dynamic.

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Authored by: crudo on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 04:55 PM UTC

To notverycreative:

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Authored by: butternut on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 06:45 PM UTC

crudo, I completely agree with you on most, if not all, of your points. But I think there's still the issue of capacity, and the underwear gnome paradox (1. Serve vegetables; 2. ??????; 3. Revolution). I'm down in Orange County, I'm sure you can imagine how things are down here since you're North Cali... there's a lot of shit happening here, and slowly we're getting stronger, but right now I think a lot of us believe the best we can do is Food Not Bombs, Copwatching, working with day laborers, etc. The copwatching has been really good for community building, a group has been organizing day laborers and helping them fight the cops, while building comradery among the workers. We've also been looking to use FNB as a tool to challenge the anti-radical/anti-activist attitude at UCI; the most "radical" environmental group there is the "Recycling Club", and the only remotely radical group on campus is a do-nothing quasi-vanguardist student-worker group--a number of clubs sell food to fundraise, so we're looking to FNB on campus as a way to undermine bourgeois anti-radical groups while raising @narchist visibility and create public confrontation. SAFNBers are also trying to build an infoshop or network of infoshops in the county, partly to create visible radical community spaces, as well as to address a critical lack of libraries in Santa Ana. And we're beginning to explore creating community gardens, to address hunger and malnourishment, build community within neighborhoods (or at least among the farmers), help reinforce human connections to the land (~95% of Santa Ana is latin@, and a large number are 1st/2nd generation immigrants, and many are mojad@, so many already know how to use the land), and create sustainable and public alternatives to the existing capitalist, pesticide-laden culture.

So in that way, I do think that FNB and similar initiatives can be beneficial to anarchist organizing, even though they may be rooted in middle class values. However, in many of the cases above, the lead has been taken by people who are struggling... a lot of the energy of our FNB comes from kids who were on the street, unemployed, or just out of jail, who were fed by FNB and decided to come back and help out; copwatch, day laborer organizing, and the community gardens are being organized by immigrants or the children of immigrants, some of whom are undocumented.

On the other hand, right now I don't think we're strong enough to start a major squatting program, especially defending squats, although some exist--a number of mojad@s are squatting on their own, and we have a couple squats. Beyond that though, I'm not so sure. A lot of our community is at risk for deportation, and we don't want to bring a lot of heat down on them, or at least more than they're already facing. Copwatch helps mitigate some of the fear that people face, but a lot more needs to be done... rapid response organizing to crush the ICE is needed, and even just community organizing, so that people know their neighbors got their back, and won't turn them in for the reward money those ICE fuckers are offering.

I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you or complementing the points you've written here. I think a lot of it has to do with capacity, and the needs of the community. I know here, some of what you've proposed in Vengeance just isn't practical, at least not yet. And programs like FNB etc can act as incubators, keeping anarchism alive until it can really take root on its own. Yet I completely agree that FNB alone won't feed people, and a lot more is needed, even though sometimes that's the best we can do.

Regardless, these debates are long overdue, and I'm really glad you've put this zine together. We don't have a lot of ability for distribution down here, but I'll copy it and try to pass it around. It would also be really helpful if you could put it in Spanish, or at least post some of the raw files so someone else can do it and keep the formatting and design. (that's one more critique of MC@--everything's in fucking English, when our neighbors and friends may only speak Spanish, creole, chinese, tagalog, etc)

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Authored by: Admin on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 06:21 PM UTC

I have lots of respect for people who do Food Not Bombs week after week. I try to tune out those self-righteous folks who criticize from their armchairs and who have a sorry track record of putting their ideas into practice.

Talk is cheap.

Chuck0

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Authored by: Al Ligator on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 06:50 PM UTC

Chuck0,
Probably almost all of us who are calling for something more here HAVE done food not bombs for weeks on end at some point in time. I have, and it's the same thing, we go to a park with where homeless people gather, we bring vegetarian food that gets eaten by only half of the homeless, and most of the FNB organizers.
They ignore us cause they see us as another charity, we stand around talking amongst ourselves, and our good deed was done for the day.
That's what it always came down to.
We can't take this anymore.
The economy isn't getting any better anytime soon, things are going down the drain.
Most people still don't even realize that there IS resistance to the current state of things, and if they hear of any, it is seen as an isolated incident in the news.
We not only desire conflict, but we *NEED* it.
We can't afford to keep going on like this.
I don't doubt that many FNB organizers have good intentions, I'm sure they do, but strategically we need to do more.
I have friends in prison, I work a shit job, didn't go to college, financially I have no future at all, and on top of that, the basic miseries of living on our society depress me to no end.
Yes, feed people, let's feed each other, let's expropriate all we can together, let us become dangerous together, let's maybe feel a little more sane in the morning by working together instead of living isolated lives going online to communicate with others.
Let's draw lines in the sand and say no together, let us find others who share our desires, because we will shout out our desires, we will wreak such a fucking havok that we cannot even be ignored anymore.
We together will attack power and make them feel threatened to the point where our friends in prison will even hear about it without us telling them about it first.
We will not leave our friends in prison isolated but will make sure that the whole of society knows the hell they are living through.
We can let people know that there are to sides to this class war and that people these days really are fighting back, and it isn't a thing of the past.
That is what I want, and I have a feeling you want the same thing to.
But I don't want to spend the rest of my life with these problems, I don't want to be yet another dead anarchist who hasn't lived out their most beautiful fantasies.
And I want to heighten the conflict and find others out there who want what I want and to work together with them, at least to give it a fucking try.
And this isn't just talk, we really haven't tried everything yet...

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Authored by: HPWombat on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 07:04 PM UTC

Who are you responding to Chuck0? Isn't this zine for people not in armchairs? I'm not sure what you are referring to. Your statement isn't a critique of this zine nor those that are interested in what it says. It's a general statement to people in armchairs only. I'm sure crudo would agree that armchair theorists aren't the target audience this zine was made for.

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embrace the dork side

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Authored by: nostalgia on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 06:59 PM UTC

"As opposed to basing ones activity first off of what you want to do for yourself based on improving your own material conditions, and then also realizing what the tensions and points of intervention in the area in which you live, many people instead opt for projects that are all based around creating an

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Authored by: HPWombat on Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 07:11 PM UTC

Posters are awesome. We need more people doing everyday agitations and not a bunch of activist wanking.

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embrace the dork side

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Authored by: engine summer on Sunday, January 04 2009 @ 10:01 PM UTC

to some of the people who have comlained about a lack of cogency in these arguments (mostly notverycreative and nostalgia), maybe the problem is one of presentation. i for one took away the idea not so much that fnb (and the rest of the catalogue of typical anarcho activist type projects) was being derided, and breaking windows, boosting and fighting nazis (etc, "militancy") being valorized per se, as much as a distinction was being made in terms of how specific tactics are linked together into a strategy. to "educate" as missionary do gooders, to help people get the "proper" ideas in their heads, while avoiding conflict, as opposed to a strategy geared toward expanding the realm of attack and subversion - "educating" perhaps, but only in very direct terms, as of showing (through an easily repeatible action) versus telling (look, isnt it nice to share food or ride bikes, after the revolution everyone can do this all the time... etc). and i agree with the author that this is a very important point and the middle class, no matter how "radicalized" its scions, tends to smother with its love of social peace. ultimately the problem has to do with overlooking the violent and destructive aspects necessary to the revolutionary project.

i have to admit that imagery like al pacino in a hollywood movie glorifying gangster capitalism doesnt really help to clarify anything though other than a certain amount of what i think could be understandably suspect of "machismo"!

and chuck, why are you so concerned that everyones radical resumes need to be a better of public record, hm?? at the risk of being accused of "channeling rush limbaugh" again, i would say that reasoning sounds akin to that favored by brandon darby and his ilk. of course, i am not sure if that is exactly what you are saying so maybe you can explain what you meant by that. that those of us who havent been, say, working on infoshops or well known radical websites and publishing projects for decades have no grounds to say anything?? or what?

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Authored by: crudo on Monday, January 05 2009 @ 03:04 AM UTC

Nostagia:
"Once again, who is talking about setting an example? It sounds to me like you are constructing strawmen to burn; unfortunately, most of the actions you suggested ("putting up posters") will be consumed by the same fire." -

First off, I didn't set out to give an alternative to FNB, or 'anarcho-activism' per say. Also, I suggested a lot of other things other than putting up posters as a group.

My point in mentioning things that anarchist crews can do together was because many people make the argument that FNB style projects get people working together on a common goal and gets them used to working collectively and in an anarchist manner. I don't disagree with this. My counter point however, is that what else could we be doing with those 4-6 hours a week (or a day) that goes into most FNB groups?

I'm not just saying this from an armchair like chucko has jabbed (I've posted for years on this board, you'd think I would have developed some form of street cred - but whatever), I was involved in the Modesto FNB group for about four years. In that time, I think the best work that we did was to use FNB as a means of launching into other forms of struggle. Namely, the 3 times we held 'Reclaim the Park' occupation events in Modesto, sometimes involving up to 400 homeless people, and in the last two years, ending the event with unpermitted marches. However, after a while, FNB just became another charity, and people didn't seem interested in using it as a vechical to meet other people who could engage in struggle. That was when I became disinterested with the project and wanted to do other things.

If I am attacking anything about FNB, it is the ongoing sentiment that I get from so many people who are involved in the project that the act of sharing food that is going to be thrown away is in itself, the most radical act one can do, and the act in itself will produce some sort of change in society. Other people go off on how it helps the environment by cutting down on things going into the waste stream, or how it shows anarchy in action, etc.

While I would state that probably the majority of people who do FNB are not middle class (at least as I understand the middle class in this country), I would say that a lot of the thinking and mindset of people who do FNB is what I would consider mainly middle class positions. Again, just because you do FNB doesn't mean that I think you are middle class. But I think a lot of the reasoning behind why people do it, is.

Again, by this I mean, that I critique the idea that setting an example for a group of people who largely participate in an activity as spectators (the homeless eating) will create a change within society, I think this is flawed. I think change happens when the exploited and excluded have some sort of autonomist power and decide to weild it. Again, many of the other projects that many anarchists seemed to be caught up in follow this same logic. I don't think that Critical Mass is going to bring the car culture to its knees. Nor do I think that it is part of some sort of momentum against capital as a whole. I do think it is a cultural phenomenon and the rides are a lot of fun. I also think FNB can make some great food and can be a cool place to hang out and meet people. Like I said in Vengeance, there are good things about these projects I think, they create space for people to meet and network, especially radicals. If instead we approached these projects for what they are most good at I think we might be able to use them better for our own needs, as opposed to harboring misconceptions regarding these projects which I think surround many of them.

"In short, how do you argue that Food Not Bombs is an attempt to "educate the dumb masses" while putting up posters somehow isn't? What is the point of a poster if not to spread information and inspire people? Lots of people find radical posters to be more condescending than people sharing food with friends and neighbors." -

Again, this is something that comes out of my personal experiences with doing FNB and talking with FNBers. Many FNB people I talk to articulate to me the idea that by doing a project like FNB, people will learn how to "live better" and survive by "mutual aid." I've heard the same argument about collective houses. "Once we show people how we live in this collective house, then everyone else out there can do the same thing." I've actually heard people say this stuff. I don't know if these people realize it, but there is already a lot of mutual aid in the homeless community (and a lot of non-mutual aid as well!) People do share, watch each others backs, etc. The main problems facing homeless people in my experience however isn't the fact that they don't know how to share, but the fact that they need mental health attention, drug and alcoholic treatment, escape from abusive relationships, jobs, etc. Again, I think if FNB can be a vehicle to attack these problems, then great, you have to start somewhere, but most FNB groups are interested in this, they seem more interested in this, they seem more interested in perpetuating the act of share food. This is why I am critical of using such projects to "educate the dumb masses" when the masses probably have a better understanding than many radicals I meet!

"Ok, I'm sure you would. I'm not terribly concerned with what you want to see "crews" engaging in, however, I'm more interested in creating revolutionary social tendencies. Trust me, I've been involved in ARA for years, and while fighting nazis may be "more interesting" than some actions, it hasn't done much to create a proactive revolutionary movement." -

I think you could pick apart everything I wrote from the posters to beating up nazis - this was really not my point. My point was the creation of street level organization based around crews. "We are not afraid of forming gangs and can only laugh at those who will decry us as a mafia." - The Call. This is the real meat of what I'm getting at and articulating. If you want to pick apart anything, go after that, everything else is just me spit balling with ideas.

"The fact that some FNB projects don't "feed into the wider anarchist movement" isn't a problem. It's ridiculous to assume that one big ass "wider anarchist movement" is going to be the impetus behind a social revolution in America. It's more likely that autonomous community, school, and workplace actions that communicate with each other will one day change the dynamic of the economy. If, as you state, the current anarchist movement is problematic, why would it be necessary for autonomous projects to join that movement?" -

Alright fine. Most FNB groups don't feed into 'autonomous communities" or the creation of autonomist power in the US. They simply are charity groups, many of them in my experience, including the one I was involved with.

butternut:
"We've also been looking to use FNB as a tool to challenge the anti-radical/anti-activist attitude at UCI; the most "radical" environmental group there is the "Recycling Club", and the only remotely radical group on campus is a do-nothing quasi-vanguardist student-worker group--a number of clubs sell food to fundraise, so we're looking to FNB on campus as a way to undermine bourgeois anti-radical groups while raising @narchist visibility and create public confrontation. SAFNBers are also trying to build an infoshop or network of infoshops in the county, partly to create visible radical community spaces, as well as to address a critical lack of libraries in Santa Ana." -

Then it sounds like you're on the right track - using anarchist projects as a means of meeting people and developing struggle, power, and using them as points of intervention. That's great.

"So in that way, I do think that FNB and similar initiatives can be beneficial to anarchist organizing, even though they may be rooted in middle class values. However, in many of the cases above, the lead has been taken by people who are struggling... a lot of the energy of our FNB comes from kids who were on the street, unemployed, or just out of jail, who were fed by FNB and decided to come back and help out; copwatch, day laborer organizing, and the community gardens are being organized by immigrants or the children of immigrants, some of whom are undocumented." -

Again, I think that that's awesome. There are always exceptions to the points I was making. Keep up the good work.

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Authored by: nostalgia on Monday, January 05 2009 @ 07:19 PM UTC

Crudo-
"First off, I didn't set out to give an alternative to FNB, or 'anarcho-activism' per say."

Then why did you say "I'd rather help a homeless family kick in the door to the foreclosed home behind my house than serve vegetables at Food Not Bombs"? Why did you talk about actions people could "be doing with those 4-6 hours a week (or a day) that goes into most FNB groups?"

My main problem with the zine and your arguments on this site is that you state that the anarchist movement is problematic, convey that you have suggestions for ways we could better spend our time, but then refuse to acknowledge that the actions you suggest have the same fundamental problems as the actions you deride.

"I would say that a lot of the thinking and mindset of people who do FNB is what I would consider mainly middle class positions."

This is an oversimplification. People have a tendency to place their thoughts and motives onto the actions of others. You stated that you were involved with Food Not Bombs for several years, isn't it possible that the reason you feel that people involved in the project harbor "middle class positions" is because you identify with similar positions?

Understand that every publicized radical action has been, at one time or another, lambasted as "middle class" adventurism. Lots of people see anarchists who break windows as coming from a middle class perspective because they feel that they are attacking the system for the masses instead of worrying about hardships in their own lives (like one of your criticisms of FNB).

You also quoted my statement about posters being an attempt to "educate the dumb masses" without replying to my concern.

"Alright fine. Most FNB groups don't feed into 'autonomous communities" or the creation of autonomist power in the US. They simply are charity groups, many of them in my experience, including the one I was involved with."

Like most actions in which anarchists engage, FNB has certain problems. I've been doing food not bombs for 6 years now, and I never felt that it was a charity. As a currently unemployed man in one of the most expensive cities in the world, I can tell you that I love being able to eat for free in an environment where people who I don't know treat me as an equal. I don't really know what instance of people sharing things you wouldn't consider to be charity (a potluck perhaps, since everyone brings something), but understand that not everyone is able to provide something at all times. I think viewing mutual aid in that sense devolves into the ideology of exchange.

I have experience with charity. I know what it's like to have people give you hand outs and not be treated as an equal. Sleeping in a mission, being forced to go to a prayer service to save your soul, this is charity, and it's not a good feeling.

I agree that they don't do the best job, but in my experience they come closer than the actions you praised.

Does a couple of anarchists breaking windows honestly create "autonomist power"? Honestly? Or does it create an exciting experience for a few individuals (which is fine). Does putting up posters create "autonomist power", or does it allow a couple of radicals to attempt to convey their feelings to others (again, this is great, but it still falls short of your apparent goal).

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Authored by: crudo on Monday, January 05 2009 @ 07:42 PM UTC

Again, you're missing my points.

My argument about doing everything from putting up posters, to more spiky direct action was based around what anarchist crews could do together in replacement of projects like FNB in order to build affinity and learn how to work together. As for building autonomist power, that I think is related to claiming and keeping space.

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Authored by: HPWombat on Tuesday, January 06 2009 @ 03:23 AM UTC

Knocking FnB is why the responses have been what they've been. Maybe Chuck0 was saying that your dichotomy was with armchair theorists and not FnBers?

Criticizing anarchist projects broadly will find lots of exceptions because the reality of anarchists being a cross-class identity. I had pure "working class crews" as a kid, but I would find it difficult getting more than a small handful of friends from within anarchist culture around the idea.

I think if another were written, it would be reasons for already existing working class crews to do radical things. Anarchists from crews probably know what you mean. FnB does have many of the problems you described crudo, but also it has a lot of exceptions. Also people in crews can be douchebags.

---
embrace the dork side

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Authored by: nostalgia on Tuesday, January 06 2009 @ 04:46 AM UTC

"My argument about doing everything from putting up posters, to more spiky direct action was based around what anarchist crews could do together in replacement of projects like FNB in order to build affinity and learn how to work together."

I'm sure it was, but "again your missing my points". The actions you suggested are great, most anarchists I know have been involved with most of them. The concern I have is that the actions you named do not sufficiently address the problems for which you attacked FNB.

What I'm saying is it's fine to identify the problems with current anarchist projects and suggest other projects. It's dangerous, however, to pose alternatives that are equally as problematic as the mocked action, then attempt to ignore this issue. It's fine that you like some actions more than others, but it's not very constructive to conflate your personal preferences with the development of a more effective radical movement, especially when all you are doing is telling people to do shit they've been doing for years.

It would be nice if we could develop entirely different forms of action, or suggest actions that have a different dynamic than the dynamic shared by FNB and most of the actions you suggested. For instance, a new form of workplace resistance is necessary given the impotence of the union movement. New forms of student organizing would be awesome given the often liberal and non confrontational nature of most student groups.

The problem is that none of us really know how to instigate a social revolution, and making an angry zine with a bunch of pictures of men with guns won't change that (unfortunately, because I definitely enjoyed your zine).

I'm glad that you are approaching an intra-movement critique with such a bold stance. A lot of the things you said are things that have been on a lot of our minds for years, sentiments that many people won't express publicly for fear of becoming even further alienated from the anarchist movement.

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