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Chomsky's Statism: An anarchism for the next millenium?

Anarchist OpinionSubmitted by mhandel:

"Noam Chomsky is seen by many as one of the more prominent anarchists in the united states. But, many times in the last several years he has come out publicly in favor of strengthening the federal government. Moreover, he argues that there is no contradiction between this stance and his advocacy of a stateless future. Such a position is in direct conflict with the traditional anarchist insight that means inevitably influence (and frequently corrupt or totally derail) intended ends, and deserves examination and rebuttal.

Chomsky bases his support for the federal government on his contention that private power wielded by corporations is much more dangerous to people than state action, and that government can, and should, protect its defenseless citizens against the depredations of the capitalists. While the power of private corporations in the united states is truly awesome and oppressive, this power exists because these businesses are supported by the state, a point that Chomsky concedes. Anarchists have generally opposed the state for precisely this reason: that it protects the interests of some, primarily the wealthy exploiters, while preventing others, especially working people, from challenging this power on their own. But, because of poor and working people's movements, the state has instituted some social welfare programs and instituted some regulation of private business to ameliorate the conditions of those most harmed by state-supported capitalism. These and other alleged public services are the aspects of government power that Chomsky supports and would see expanded.

Chomsky further argues that the state is the only form of illegitimate power in which people have a real chance to participate. Besides the question of whether it is moral for people to participate in the exercise of this illegitimate power, he doesn't make a very convincing argument for his contention. In one interview he states that the pentagon budget is going up, while the population oppose this by a 6 to 1 ratio. In another article he says that government regulatory mechanisms are very weak, and mostly controlled by the corporations anyway. He even quotes a poll in one of his interviews to the effect that 82% of americans feel the state is not run in the interests of the people. Nowhere does he back up his claim that government is or has been open to popular participation in any meaningful sense.

Governments have been influenced by popular pressure, however. The anti-war movement made it impossible for the military to use nuclear weapons in southeast asia, thereby preventing a united states conquest of vietnam. Anti-racist activists in the sixties and seventies pressured governments at all levels to eradicate racist laws and practices and brought about the end of most legal segregation. But these are not examples of people participating in government. Instead these are instances of outsiders (which regular people will always be vis-a-vis the state) bringing pressure on an evil institution to change its ways.


Such measures can also bring about change in private institutions as well. The labor movement brought about changes using pressure tactics such as strikes and sabotage against private businesses, and activists have assisted workers with boycotts and public actions directed at corporations as well. While it may be easier in some settings to win concessions from government because individual politicians wish to be elected in the sham of elections, people acting for themselves can often accomplish great things on their own in both the public and private arenas.

Government is a package. The welfare state is also the warfare state, and, while Chomsky criticizes the federal government's support of prisons and corporations, he thinks government can protect people from prisons and corporations. He says that people can participate in government, but complains that it is not under popular influence. Government is force and should be done away with. People can act for themselves and take care of themselves. That is the anarchist attitude to the state, and Chomsky rejects it.

In fact, he is troubled that people might hate or fear the government. He admits that the state steals from poor people to subsidize wealthy people, but he thinks discussions about whether the government can be trusted to care for poor people are irrelevant. He dismisses as far-right the rejection of public schools. He feels that when people feel disillusioned about power, they turn to "irrational" alternatives. He arrogantly states that those who think there is a contradiction in supporting centralized state power even though one opposes it "just aren't thinking very clearly."

Chomsky seems not to be able to envision any means of offsetting the power of private tyrannies other than increasing the power of public tyrannies. Chomsky speaks glowingly of the efforts of poor people in places such as Haiti. "Poor people, people in the slums, peasants in the hills, managed to create out of their own activity a very lively, vibrant civil society with grass-roots movements and associations and unions and ideals and commitments and hopes and enthusiasm and so on which was astonishing in scale, so much so that without any resources they were able to take over the political system," He seems to see their assumption of state power as a victory, unable to envision that people this resourceful could continue to function quite nicely without a government. And people are this resourceful, both in haiti and the united states, and this is where anarchists get their inspiration.

Even Barbara Ehrenreich, a social democrat, and, with Chomsky, a member of the New Party, can countenance non-statist solutions to working and poor people's problems. As she says, "[W]e can no longer allow ourselves to be seen as cheerleaders fro government activism.We need to emphasize strategies and approaches that do not depend on the existing government, that in fact bypass it as irrelevant or downright obstructionist." She then goes on to mention organizing the unorganized, citizen initiatives against corporate abuses, and non-governmental self-help projects in the tradition of the feminist health centers of the 70s. In addition, she sees the state as a clear enemy in its erosion of civil liberties and the growth of the punishment industry. She calls her approach "progressive libertarianism." Such an outlook is closer to an anarchist one than is Chomsky's.

Unlike Chomsky, many rightly see that government schools educate badly, government welfare does not serve poor people well, and government action is largely against the interests of regular people. He is right that private corporations are not in the business of being humanitarian, but neither is the state. Instead of criticizing and fearing this anti-government feeling, we should encourage it and seek to extend it to all areas of government, including the military, police, and taxes.

Private corporate power exists only because it is protected by the state. Government reduces competition and limits entry into the market place with various licensing and regulatory schemes, and grants monopolies and subsidies to favored businesses. Chomsky himself concedes that corporations would not be successful if forced to submit to market discipline, and that markets are under attack. But in addition to actively promoting concentration of private corporate power, the government prevents people from defending their own interests in disputes with corporations with its police powers and laws that disarm working people. Such disempowerment of people makes them unable to resist the power of public institutions as well, allowing the state to tax, regulate, and imprison people at its whim. Abolishing state power is a more effective and libertarian method of limiting private and public tyranny than is increasing the scope of the federal government. Only anarchist means have any hope of producing anarchist ends."
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Here's what others have to say about 'Chomsky's Statism: An anarchism for the next millenium?':

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Tracked on Thursday, November 22 2007 @ 04:02 PM UTC

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comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 09 2002 @ 12:03 PM UTC


i agree with the first and also last 3 comments.
chomsky is a realist; the \'revolution\' has even less support than the power structure. (more people in the USA at least will call the cops in the face of a general rebellion than participate in it---basically because they do not trust the rebels.) it is very unclear to me what is \'reformist\' versus \'revolutionary\'-----this line actually seems similar to the definition of a \'sin\' in religion, so the people who argue against some action as \'reformist\' to me sound like moralizing religious people. (who always define whatever they like to do as \'non-sinful\'.)

if chomsky is weak on one thing, its recognizing that his own critical analyses owes in part to the \'status quo\' that creates both the problems he deplores and also the potential for radical critique from his MIT job. (zinn and nader have the smae problem.) the real issue is whether one can \'mass market\' dissent of a pretty clear form (one which doesn\'t just express itself in random \'rage against the machine\'); places like MIT mostly are good at making McJobs and Big Macs mass produced---scientists there use their PhDs so the \'working class\' can \'get a job\' to \'keep busy\' as a means of social control-for-profit ; they don\'t deal with the problem of mass producing \'social critique\' or \'common sense\'. (MIT lives off the military )
if they did they would be out of business---because the \'working class\' would then take over what people at MIT do and eliminate busy work for social control. (the same way they could eliminate professional politicians in favor of DIY decisionmaking). (if people at MIT asked for research grants to eliminate shitwork and militariasm and illegitimate authority, they would be out the door. so instead they ask for work on missile defense or \'media lab\' stuff for automating kitchen cleaning. chomsky\'s own work is being used to automate reading, so the \'working class\' now need not even learn to read to be employed; hence one can close the schools and get people to work earlier.)

so, one needs to build support for change, not just try to create an insurrection which is heroic like Kronstadt or France 68 but just gets wrtitten up in history. chomsky does this through education. protests also are a form of education. any form of direct action (propoganda against something or action creating \'parallell institutions\') is educational (people learn about issues, DIY approaches etc.)
i like the idea of emphasizing education, especially given that alot of \'work\' is pretty meaningless. (it actually is about educating people for the power structure).

possibly \'anarchy\' might also be like life as informal education; everyone is a full time student of \'the examined life\' thought they of course play hooky.
comment by js
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 12:48 PM UTC
The argument is a good one to make but focusing on chomsky isnt exactly fair. Since most anarchists argue that working on some issues that may seem to \"legitamize\" the state in the short term can be radicalizing in the long term. Working on fair housing is one, if a city council is planning on strengthening laws for fair housing would you be for or against it? Probably neither but if it was a. affecting you or b. youd been working on the issue than obviously you would not be against the state helping the people who are getting screwed. Its not a black and white issue. I definately believe that as a whole anarchists lately have been organizing \"as anarchists\", and it has been extremely succesful. I also think that chomsky should be talking about anarchism and what he thinks about it more often. Other than that. Chomsky has done an enormous amount of good. We would be foolish to not recognize that.
comment by Nikos
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 02:00 PM UTC
Chomsky\'s position is ridiculous. If the state and its monopoly of violence was out of the picture the Capitalists would not be much to worry about. Their power would collapse without the police and other armed men of the state to protect them.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 02:05 PM UTC
Unless they had their own police and armies...
comment by Nikos
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 02:19 PM UTC
They would be divided and fighting each other, and less effective. I do not buy that \"Libertarian\"(notice the capital L) bullshit, that the religion of the free market would prevent their fighting each other.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 02:27 PM UTC
neither do I, which is why I find the anarcho-capitalist scenario so apalling. (Thus, I was pointing out the death of the state without targeting capitalism wouldn\'t necessarily mean the collapse of capital).
comment by Nikos
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 02:46 PM UTC
It probably would mean the death of capital because of their divisions. The government is very respected by most people, even Chomsky has even bought into the myth that the government is responsive to the people. Without the government to channel the low intensity class war into a reformism that helps reinforce Capital and the state\'s power(keeping the conflict low intensity of years to come), I do not feel Capitalism would be much to worry about.

Buisnesses could try to pick up the slack and channel their workers into a reformism, but they would not have the heghemony that government did.
comment by ghghg
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 03:08 PM UTC
so, here\'s my theory: we all work to make government clearly expendable, strengthening local democracy and such, and, powza! bang! honk! bjork! boom! revolution, with no death, no need to break windows, and every reason to celebrate. if anyone calls me an idealist, i will vomit.
comment by profrv@etc
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 06:35 PM UTC
Chomps kinda distanced himself from anarchism for years,\"Objectivity and liberal scolarship,\"deserves wide anarchist circulation but not really all that much else IMHO.I like Chomp (and even Nader) but he\'s not an anarch.
Nikos is absolutly correct,destroy the state and open up some real possibilities.There are a lot of \'political\' ways to destroy the state.They dont have to be boring,reformist or whatever.Divide and rule,CoinTelPro,etc cut both ways.Whatever weapon they use may be taken from them and used against them.
Killthepresident,pr.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, March 08 2002 @ 10:10 PM UTC
I think it is pretty clear that Chomsky is an anarchist. He has stated this on numerous occasions and explains in depth his politics in his new book Understanding Power. In typical fashion, the response from some in the anarchist movement to some of Chomsky\'s comments has been of the knee jerk variety. I think that some of this anarchist confusion comes from the fact that Chomsky is often speaking to audiences who aren\'t anarchists, so he makes his points in a way that sound, perhaps hypocritical to the anarchist ear. Of course, making these points in this matter doesn\'t make Chomsky not an anarchist, in the same way that the fact that many anarchists pay taxes doesn\'t invalidate their anarchism.

Chomsky has made several arguments that sounds like praise for statism, but he is actually making very nuanced arguments about how the governments are about the only strong thing right now that can counteract the powerful corporations. We\'ve seen lots of that recently, as the economic situation and the Enron/Arthur Andersen scandals have given the government an opportunity to exercise power over the corporations. In his \"expanding the floor of the cage\"series of articles, Chomsky was basically engaging in some arguments against privitization and neoliberalism. These articles were written shortly before Seattle, when the ongoing rush towards globalization looked like ti wouldn\'t be met with any opposition. Chomsky was arguing that we needed to salvage what was left of the public sphere (like public libraries), in order to make space for future resistance.
comment by DylanWaco
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 09 2002 @ 01:48 AM UTC
though i consider myself an anarchist, and agree wih some of the critique of chomsky, i can\'t possibly agree with a complete isolation from \"reformist\" ideas. don\'t get me wrong. i\'d rather people work through ngo\'s and non-affiliated grassroots networks, but at this stage it seems unbelievably ignorant to avoid all contact with conventional political matters. unless everyone wishes to live like martyrs or believes we\'ll wake up in harmony with the world one day, it is going to take a sustained effort from inside and outside of the system. infiltration is underated, if for no other reason that it shows other isolated (but like minded people), that people fighting for the same concepts do exist. we can\'t ignore these sort of subtle advances, and consider this \"movement\" a serious one.
comment by Chris
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 09 2002 @ 06:30 AM UTC
You can\'t just burn down the government buildings and expect a sudden anarcho-socialist society... anarchism is not something we can acheive next week, it requires the general public to change their views on things. Although, I think this can be done in ways other than voting for the bad left instead of the bad right.
comment by Bakunin
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 09 2002 @ 03:25 PM UTC
I think that it is true at times chomsky\'s personal politics have been lest than anarchist in nature, that that does not dismiss his overall commitment and contribution over the course of his life to the anarchist movement, which is quite substantial.

It is possible to push for reforms [such as affordable housing, etc.] while still carrying high the banner of revolution an anarchism. You do this by saying \"we demand this reform\" and educating people as to *why* you demand the reform, and what you hope to achieve. Then you talk about *why* changes in the present system are necessary, which leads to anarchism\'s critique of captialism.

For example, in doing anti-poverty work, you often make demands for \"affordable housing\", \"tenants rights\", and increased social services for the poor. This is NOT a call for the state to come help, but a *demand*. There is no bargaining process, no expectation of being satisfied with the reform. They could build endless miles of affordable housing and the root problems that create poverty - namely capitalism - would still exist.

In short, in all our work demanding \'reforms\', we must constantly keep in mind that the only \"satisfactory deal\" with the ruling class will be the immediate and unconditional surrender of the means of production and distribution.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 09 2002 @ 10:31 PM UTC
Umm, the anarchist movement, at least in North America, is pretty large and growing. In several places, the local anarchists have pretty much eclipsed the old left. Of course, the anarchist movement is often its own worse enemy. Many people get turned off by the obscure bickering, especially over people who most people don\'t know about. Anarchists are very disorganized and they heap lots of responsibility on the shoulders of a few people.

Actually, I\'m thinking about writing a series of articles about what is wrong with the current anarchist movement. I see these problems as *challenges*, since they aren\'t keeping anarchism stagnant, rather they represent missed opportunities.

I\'ve been pretty disappointed in the uncritical decisions made by some anarchists to feature non-anarchist speakers, such as Michael Albert, at anarchist events. We have many talented anarchists in our midst. Let\'s here from them before we feature apologists for authoritarian leftism like Michael Albert.

I think anybody who criticizes Chomsky\'s personal and professional life is missing the point. I\'m sure that Noam is pretty critical of his affiliation with MIT, but that position gives him a base from which to do his activist work that inspires and educates many people. I think this criticism of Chomsky is failing to see the forest for the trees.

On the topic of \"reforms\" versus \"reformism,\" there is a good section in the Anarchist FAQ on that topic.
comment by jah1936
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 09 2002 @ 09:45 PM UTC
I think that Chomsky is an anarchist who is trying to be somewhat realistic and pragmatic, though I do feel that Chomsky, Howard Zinn, and Michael Albert\'s position on government does need to be criticized, as well as the attention they give to ridiculous left-wing organizations. I suspect that they would change their tune if the anarchist movement were actualy huge and significant... I seriously doubt someone like Chomsky would do anything to stand in the way of any real kind of anarchist movement, which makes him different from the social democrats, liberals, etc.
comment by profrv@etc
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 09 2002 @ 11:49 PM UTC
Anarchist not an anarchist? See Zerzen...Subject: Who is Chompsky
http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/whochoms.htm
When the lunar right is mainstream I guess some think Chomp is rad,lets look a little closer.(Thanks zerzen)
(START)Noam Chomsky is probably the most well-known American anarchist, somewhat curious given the fact that he is a liberal-leftist politically, and downright reactionary in his academic specialty, linguistic theory. Chomsky is also, by all accounts, a generous, sincere, tireless activist -- which does not, unfortunately, ensure his thinking has liberatory value. MORE (if you can stand it.)Chomp seems to be an accidental anarchist by his choice of revolutionary Spain for a thesis.(The top knotch,\"objectivity and liberal scholarship.An anarchist mustread.)
But is he an anarchist? I dont think so.

comment by js
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 10 2002 @ 12:52 AM UTC
you really are an idiot arent you?
comment by js
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 10 2002 @ 12:54 AM UTC
id be interested in reading those essays you plan to write. Id also be interested in a comparison beetween anarchist activists in the 10\'s and 30\'s to the ones now. Id imagine we are repeating the same mistakes. Maybe not though?
comment by Brady
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 10 2002 @ 03:04 AM UTC
Um...that essay \"Who is Chomsky?\" is probably the most REACTIONARY piece by Zerzan to date. I really think you should READ some chomsky before talking about this piece of crap. eww
comment by ishi
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 10 2002 @ 05:16 AM UTC


i don\'t think \'criticizing\' or rather \'making a critique of\' chomsky\'s personal life (his choice of work affiliation, theoretical views of language and research program, food, entertainment, etc.) is \'missing the point\'. the \'personal is political\' (the pop version of \'situationist\' theory) so \'everything\' may need changing or reconsidering. also, i don\'t think anyone really knows which \'piece of the puzzle\' is the \'key\' issue. is it US foreign policy, globalization, the IMF/WB, language, civilization, the academic-business-military complex, the prison industrial complex, \'authoritarian leftists\', \'liberals\' and \'social democrats\', \'assholes\' or \'egoists\' and \'power trippers\', \'losers\', etc.? i don\'t know, and everyone\'s got an opinion. (i think ray charles has a song about this).

( i wonder if chomsky was studying \'genetic engineering\' or \'nuclear power\' whether these \'personal\' issues might not be more open to critique.)

people\'s decisions have consequences; all of them. people drive, and eat fast food, so we have tropical deforestation and oil wars. people conform to common conventions about who they hang out with (\'prejudice\') and what they do (obey peer pressure) and this organizes society a particular way. people like to study, and in this society this means the academic community too often makes deals with businesses who agree to support them in exchange for doing business friendly research. (chomsky was funded by the US Navy at least at the beginning. now, he probably can get less \'dirty\' money, but the \'academy\' at present, and the people who support it by working there, don\'t have his status so they often have made a deal with this status quo so they don\'t have to be fast food workers. even schools now get sponsored by businesses such as coke and nike. chomsky is not the issue; but he illustrates a general problem in the way education and science is funded in this society. and that may be as big a problem as us imperialism, because imperialism is due in part to how imperialists get educated. IMF/WB economists not uncommonly are educated at MIT.)

as a practical matter i completely agree that chomsky\'s position allows him to be quite effective in educating people---90% i\'d say about \'us imperialism\'. this is good. (one can say however that because the \'spotlight\' often gets pointed on him and his choice of issues that other views which may be equally important get ignored. the one book of his i plan to read next is year 501, which supoosedly puts his critique in historical context. his book on education, on the contrary, i read on Amazon.com (reader reviews) actually had little to do with that problem---it was mstly just a reprint of his stuff on us foreign policy. )

similarily, people in unions which are involved in production that is questionable (eg the nuclear power industry, the sprawl construction industry, the oil industry that wants to develop the arctic, the timber industry, people who organize in McDonald\'s or telemarketing phone banks) cannot be expected to \'quit their day job\' because they need to survive and also they can actually be effective within their environment at organizing people to think differently about work. (how money is divided, how \'productive work\' is defined). but their work environment can be critiqued without criticizing them personally.

it is probably pragmatic for \'taco bell\' workers to not worry about the whole \'fast food issue\', and simply focus on their own unionizing effort, and chomsky also should not devote endless energy to reforming MIT. but, in the long run, part of the \'point\' is to change the entire structure of how people live and what they accept as \'business as usual\'. this ultimately also means expanding the \'political critique\' beyond what is usually seen as political. this is the \'situationist\' view, though the sits did not invent it nor are they the only proponents of it. (marcuse, adorno, even marx in his \'alienation and labor\' and critique of religion all recognized that there was no \'single issue\' which permitted one to ignore others).

dividing the political from other features of life to me actually is an example of what zerzan calls correctly \'reification\'; its part of the general \'division of labor\' that keeps people alienated from many relevant aspects of reality. the division here is mental---one has to seperate activism from the rest of daily life. its pragmatic, but in the long run these borders need to be redrawn. (i don\'t think they can be eliminated any more than humans can eliminate the borders that define their \'self).

in fact, it is the little accomodations that people make in their daily \'situations\' which are (it seems) 50% responsible for the maintenance of the status quo. the legitimization of the university system (which effectively dominates and even monopolizes alot of intellectual effort), the accepance of the idea that \'you have to work at a certain level to keep up with the jones or peer group\' all hold up the system. even the issue of \'who is an anarchist\' can be \'missing the point\' which is that people actually may not know becasuse the question is ill-posed.

as for zerzan\'s views that chomsky\'s lingusitics is \'reactionary\' i think this is false or unproven. he has one theory (which is seen as reactionary by some because it is a \'genetic\' theory. the problem with genetic theories is people can and do argue that language, IQ, the authoritarian personality, the state, religion, social losers and \'dissent\' are all \'genetic\' and natural. The other view is these are \'learned\' or \'socially constructed\'. the moderate view is that noone knows how much is genetic or learned, nor what is \'natural\'.) whether genetic theories have political consequences at present is unknown, apart from eugenics.

Chosmky is a bit closed minded (a trait associated with reactionarys commonly) is that he does ignore academic work on \'sociolinguistics\'----how language use constructs power-------which is relevant to why people in general have difficulty communicating and instead choose the easier \'american\' way of \'shooting first and not asking questions\'. (this critique is implicit in his theory of manufacture of consent\' by the media. however, he does not expand that critique to how \'education\' (his job) also \'manufactures consent\', and \'filters\' society from \'deviants\', and also manufactures the elites that run the media and government he criticizes. so his critique is very limited, and one reason is because from the \'sociolinguistic\' point of view even \'science\' is heavily devoted to maintainaing \'power\', in part by keeping a \'special vocabulary\' which means it is as unavailable to the masses as are FBI files. and, despite the hype, this vocabulary is probably in large part no more difficult than using Windows or running a cash register. )
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 10 2002 @ 08:37 AM UTC
Yeah! I can actually say that I disagreed with Zerzan\'s arguments in that article. Guess what? So did Jason McQuinn, who published the article in Anarchy. Jason told me that it wasn\'t one of Zerzan\'s better pieces, but that there was very little criticism of Chomsky coming from the anarchist point of view.
comment by Dylan Waco
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 10 2002 @ 09:40 AM UTC
i think you make an interesting statement about michael albert here. why i myself am not sure whether or not he\'s an anarchist, in the end such questions are only answered through interpertation. i would certainly encourage everyone to think critically about anarchism, and what views aren\'t consistent with it\'s basic tenant, but i think in the end the answer may not be what you or i assume it will be. if albert has no place amongst the anarchist community, the average mcdonalds employee certainy doesn\'t, which of course is a major problem with our logic (if it turns out to be the case).
comment by professor rat
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 11 2002 @ 02:30 AM UTC
I\'m having trouble finding an online copy of \"Objectivity and liberal scholarship.\"Any URL\'s? (There\'s a dead tree version in cienfuegos press anarchist review.volume one,no 3.autumn 1977.)I think every anarch should know this,its about 20 pages inc notes.
comment by the burningman
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 11 2002 @ 08:52 AM UTC
This does cut to the issue. Is state ownershop the same as direct capitalist control? Under a system dominated by commodity production, I would say, ultimately, yes.

However, what about public hospitals, schools and spaces? This is a real question for quite a few anarchists out there. I relied on public schools and universtites to receive my education. I use public hospitals and clinics for my health care. And I don\'t want them privatized.

Kudos to Chuck0 for posting this article, jeers for the comments above that don\'t understand the real importance of this question.

I believe the \"state,\" for lack of a better word, has served different functions at different points in time in response to different social bases. The terror of the Jacobins, to get historical, had little in common with the regulation of the ancien regime. (Sorry for the French history references.)

In the US, this could be seen in the difference between the Union and the Confederacy. The Confederacy (notice similarities to anarchist language) opposed a strong federal government with the power to over-ride local power. They believed in local government and really keeping power directly in the hands of the ruling class, that is, slavedrivers.

The Union believed that the collective will, as manifested through democratic means of voting, could veto the decisions of the southern ruling class, and even enact anti-trust legislation in the North. The state is more complex than cops and prisons.

Reducing the question of political representation to a moral credo against any form of mediation misses how politics happens in societies larger than the family unit or community. And, again, kudos to Chuck0 for putting this question out clearly.

comment by Nikos
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 11 2002 @ 08:49 PM UTC
It can be found here: http://www.greenmac.com/Chomsky/liberalElite.html

I had no trouble finding it with google, 3rd link down.
Link
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 11 2002 @ 09:31 PM UTC

i second here the burningman\'s case that issues like public education/health/libraries make the issue of \'government\' or \'anti-statism\' complex. the essay on this site \'poststructural anarchy\' also makes the same point in a \'complex\' or \'poststructural way\', which is that \'power\' or \'authoritarianism\' nowadays is created and maintained in complex ways, not just by the state, but also by custom, and even the educational system (and the author is a professor like chomsky). but in the USA non-privatized state institutions do permit some people access to power (eg health, education, social services of some form) and shelter from coporate power, so the problem of power is not easily identified with \'the state\'. (Times have changed since 1880. while abolishing these dependencies is the goal of anarchism, without the percpetion that viable alternatives exist mass support is unlikely to occur for the a-lternative. infoshops don\'t replace the library.)

interestingly an old debate in Anarchy on \'poststructuralism\' had J McQuinn forseeing academic \'poststructural anarchy\' becoming a field in itself (like \'postmodernism\', \'identity politics\') so it seems to be on track. he saw this as bad; but as noted having this at a public (or even private) university can nonetheless provide some people with an education. It can also be noted that while poststructural anarchy, with its emphasis on Foucault and Derrida, was seen by most Anarchy writers as obscure and useless, it actually is just another variant of French political philosophy, basically the same as Situationism. Both argue, in different \'lingo\' that \'authoritianism\' cannot be localized in any particular \'situation\' or place, but is co-constructed unconsioucly and unwittingly. just as \'capital\' is constructed by the wage slave. this insight is i think an advance on 18th century anarchist theory, though it really is a version of Marx\'s theory of \'alienation\', which is that oppressed people get confused and don\'t always act to create their own power, but instead act to maintain status quo power. )
comment by profrv@etc
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 12 2002 @ 01:20 AM UTC
To talk about giving more power to the the state at this point in time sounds like suicide to me.Strictly on tactical grounds.A little machiavelli goes a bloody long way.
Try and create more cage floor space,sure,like the kids who shoot up their schools.Chomskies wrong in terms of anarchism,to call for more state power,intervention,whatever.He should be called on it,(in a comradely way)and I dont like him getting cosy with the ISO.This is an extremely snaky bunch of fucking leninists.We may be about to experience an anarcho-winter as the state tools up for massive repression,it could be a good time to prune some dead wood.
Thanks for the URL Nikos.FREE NIKOS MAZIOTIS!
comment by jah1936
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 12 2002 @ 04:24 AM UTC
Actualy, Chomsky was very much criticized in the pages of Anarcho-Syndicalist Review, where they took him to task for his position on the welfare state and any kind of trust in government.... Chomsky was also criticized by Joe Peacott of Bad Press (formerly the Boston Anarchist Drinking Brigade). I personaly like Chomsky but I really disagree with his poition on expecting much fromt he government. I understand the theory but I dont think people who call themselves anarchists should hold such a position. I think the idea of making government \"better\" should be left to liberals and state-marxists.
comment by jah1936
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 12 2002 @ 04:32 AM UTC
I think the main reason Zerzan does not like Chomsky is clearly because Chomsky endorses and supports anarcho-syndicalism, anarchist organization, and is not bothered by the idea of some form of industrial production and civilization. (\"civilization\" simply means \"the culture of the city\"). It was inevitable that Zerzan would attack Chomsky, or would resent his popularity... Zerzan\'s friends already blasted Bookchin and now they have their eyes on another symbol of their competition within the anarchist movement in the U.S.
comment by Nikos
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 12 2002 @ 08:37 AM UTC
I read the \'Expanding the Floor of the Cage\'(1) interview. A better metaphor would have been expanding the area of the zoo. From our world view as anarchists, we see it as a cage, but that is not apparent to most. Imagine you were born a tiger in a zoo. You would not even know what it is like to be a free tiger in the Asia, and would perceive your \'cage\' as normal. This is more appropriate because the majority of people are not anarchists and cannot even see there they are in a zoo(cage) as the state and capitalism\'s ideological mechanisms teach them to think that it is their natural state to be ruled and exploited, respectively, just as a captive tiger believes it to be natural to live in an enclosed area and not roaming in Asia. Of course, to us the equivalent of roaming freely in Asia, would be to be unfettered from capitalist and state domination. We are tigers that know that we are in a zoo.

>>Chomsky: \"Exactly. When I talked to the anarchist group in Buenos Aires, we discussed this. Everybody basically had the same recognition. There
comment by Nikos
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 12 2002 @ 08:45 AM UTC
I think he is mistaken in alot of things. What really pisses me off is Chomsky\'s constant yammering about how America is one of the freest countries in the world(at least he does not say the freest). Personally, as an American, there are alot of European countries I would rather live in.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 12 2002 @ 05:05 PM UTC

while the \'zoo\' idea is good, its worth remembering that the animals in their cages who want out also are not all the same species; so they are caught between wanting out and also not wanting to be caught off their habitat by the caged animal next door which will eat them. (they are like caged rats who attack each other as a way of releieving stress.)

the animals are divided and conquered, and all the \'unite against the state/oppressive class\' really has little power when one is dealing with a bunch of feuding tribals (eg this web site) .

its just like afghanistan, where the locals all cannot stand each other, so if the russians, the taliban or the us show up with the biggest guns, they just join with them. the animals in the zoo are friends with whoever throws them the sweetest treats. this seems to be an issue.
comment by blob
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, March 12 2002 @ 06:35 PM UTC
jamal, it\'s really sad that after all the time spent in trying to clarify things with you, you still insist on characterizing the critiques that various anarchs have with anarcho-syndicalism as based on such stupid things as whether a person is a celebrity or not. you are the one personalizing the discussion, not zerzan and others who dispute the notion that syndicalism is the most relevant anarchist tendency. chomsky should rightly be taken to task for any number of things, not least of which is his call for a stronger centralized government. that he is popular has nothing to do with whether or not to ignore his creeping statism. let\'s stick to facts, not suppositions and assumptions (which, in any case can be cleared up quickly if you knew how to communicate effectively).
comment by nabat
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 16 2002 @ 08:52 AM UTC
I really like Joe Peacott\'s article on Noam Chomsky\'s reformism and statism. It seems that many \"anarchists\" are really just radical lefty reformists, and don\'t understand what it means to be an anarchist, which is to be against the state. I don\'t think it\'s a good strategy to work within the existing system in any way, even if it is for a good cause. There are tons of ways that anarchists could do stuff without relying on the state or working within the status quo - for example, \"dropping out\" of the whole school/work system and creating counter-institutions, developing an anarchist infrastructure, intentional communities, pooling together resources and creating a self-sustainable intentional neighborhood.
comment by Nikos
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 16 2002 @ 12:10 PM UTC
Chomsky says that \"private tyranny\" is much worse than the state and that many anarchists are too hung up on state power when they should worry more about \"private power\". The \"private\" power he is talking about all depends on using using state power. He is way too hung up on corporate lobbying. The way he calls this power \"private\" and government power \"public\" says alot.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, March 16 2002 @ 02:31 PM UTC
I think anarchists don\'t focus on state power *enough*.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 17 2002 @ 01:29 PM UTC


anarchists classically emphasize state power as the source of all violence. so they should focus on state power.

but people have gradually realized that state power is filtered through private power (both business or economic power of capitalism, and also \'tradition\' such as people\'s religious or moral beliefs) and so these generic \'anti-authoritarians\' cannot really decide whether its the state or the closest person (or themsevles) who is the source of the problem of power (illegitimate authority). ( for example, the local \'stalinist\', sexist, homophobe, racist, go-along-to-get-along-er may not have any economic or political power, but s/he is still a problem.)

if there is going to be any resolution of the conflict between anarchists and anti-authoritarians then anarchists probably have to realize that cultural attitudes are often equally a problem. attacking the state is from this view just a \'reform\' since the equally big problem of private power is just put off till later.

comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, March 17 2002 @ 05:04 PM UTC
The thing is, without the state to back it up - \"private power\" wouldn\'t be much of a threat to us.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, March 18 2002 @ 09:18 PM UTC

there are 2 issues. one was even cited by bob black in an old letter to anarchy, and by 5th estate writers---if anarchists succeeded in abolishing the state, would they then just rebuild it, as critics argue, or would they follow the anarchic ideal and move on to anarchy. could they learn from mistakes, or would they repeat history. is \'private power\' not really a problem, or is it in fact a real one? this comes down to \'human nature\', and why people create hierarchy. i think they can avoid it, but it requires some thought or something. but, without that i think likely predictable patterns would emerge. just saying its not a problem may not make it not exist.
the 2nd is pragmatic---irregardless of what wouold happen in the absence of a state, how does one even try. here the issue is how one can get sufficient support for \'anti-statism\'. this is what chomsky is talking about. occassionaly to get from point a to point b you have to take a route which is not direct (like light in a curved space or gravity field). for example, the state was used to abolish slavery in the usa, and theoretically this was pragmatic in that it permitted more people to become more \'self-organized\' to go further towards self-management. or, one can argue this was a waste of time, and merely legitimized \'law\'. i aM undecided on the issue, but i defer to the judgement of people at times who want to see some \'results\' even if they are not the ideal, unless one can come up with a better solution which is not just a purist ideology (like prayer). (this is the generic \'support reforms\' idea, except i don\'t distinguish this from something called \'reformism\' in practice; there may be some \'reformists\' who only see that as the whole social process, but alot of people just want a \'result\' today and they are not too interested in some utopia. what is really needed is a combination of the two---a strategy that yeilds results while not stopping motion towards better results.)
comment by Nikos
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, March 20 2002 @ 02:29 AM UTC
As long as there is a state, \"private power\" will be something to worry about. If there was no state you could do more radical things, unlike Chomsky\'s suggested reforms, like squat buildings with no fear of cops, reappropriate farms, factories and other resources. I think Chomsky analysis that anarchists are too bent on the state when we should be worrying about private power is half baked. The best way to radicalize people, is by learning through radical actions. As long as the government has their monopoly of violence over us, we will be limitied in what actions we can do and we will be forced to persue less radical actions.

Should we liberate this factory? If there is a state, probably not, you would not be allowed to keep your gain. In the absence of a state, go for it, who will stop you?
comment by Chomxy
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, April 05 2002 @ 06:02 AM UTC
Let us first note that the article above contains not one reference to Chomsky\'s work or interviews. Let us keep this upper most in our minds. Having said this let us accept the premises of the argument. Is there a contradiction between Chomsky\'s \"statism\" and his Anarchist convictions? I shall argue that no contradiction exists.

Consider this. Suppose we are in 1917, Petrograd. We have the constitutional democracy, of sorts, lead by Kerensky. On the other hand we have Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin. We are Anarchist deputies to the recently convened constitute assembly. Lenin implores us to support the Bolsheviks. Kerensky implores us to support the assembly. What do we do? Quite clearly our actions should be governed by elementary ethical principles. What the original author, and others, would have us do is do nothing: we don\'t care if Kerensky wins or Lenin because they both share an interest in the continuation of the state. We have the balance of power and instead adopt the position \"abolish the state\" and refuse to take part in the vote. The Bolsheviks win and we thereby condemn millions to their death. Is that right?

Or say we refuse to fight against the Nazi party with the social democrats becuase alas the SDP are stateites just like the Nazi\'s. Is that right?

Some applies today. Do we support the dismantling of the welfare state or not? Do we support a minimum wage or not?

Notice that the original author would have us not support unions and workers struggling for a living minimum wage beacause they are against wage slavery. So if Chomsky supports those struggling for a living wage then the original author would have us believe that Chomsky is all for wage slavery.

See how stupid the argument is? A moral agent must employ his ethical faculty in a given social context. Now ultimately Anarchism is how society should be \"organized\" based on elemantry ethical principles. However we are situated in a social setting governed by neo-liberal globalization. Thus although our ethical principles within this context are of course less than ideal, that is less than the employment of our ethical faculties in the abstract.

No contradiction there.
comment by Suicide_Green
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, April 08 2002 @ 12:19 PM UTC
Abolish merely the state and the corporations still hold tremendous resources, transnationalized and quite capable of implementing the same modes of protection that the state uses currently. I\'m sure they would be pleased to be completely without the rather minimal restrictions that are implemented, like a minimum wage.

Chomsky just doesn\'t want wal-mart to replace the state. I\'m not certain if I \"like\" Chomsky since he has no discernable personality in writing or interview, (he\'s fairly robotic) but I understand his viewpoint.

Theres little reason to personalize the issue, as if Chomsky secretly wants to see the present system remain for his sake. I\'d wager his utopia is akin to the post-leftists utopia, were he pressed into developing his views into something as unrealistic as a utopian vision.

try to discuss ideas, not the people espousing them, it will keep you from pulling up modes of evasion like class-baiting or the odd lifestyle abstractions. This isn\'t fucking Marxism.

-scott
comment by Rob Augman
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, April 15 2002 @ 03:24 PM UTC
comment by Undecided
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, July 15 2002 @ 07:43 PM UTC
I\'m not going to get too much into this - people have said all kinds of things that are more impressive and knowledgable than i could say, on both sides of the argument certainly.

I just wanted to put in a tiny little nit-pick here...
I\'ve read multiple cases of Chomsky criticizing the current educational system! (In the second last paragraph of this article, the author claimed that Chomsky didnt recognize that government schools educate badly) I\'ve heard him criticize the school-systems multiple times before, with the strong emphasis they have on forcing students, emphasis on competition, in tossing forth doctrine and suppressing individuality, creativity, and scientific-thinking (rational thought).

And... yeah, that\'s all i have to say, heh.

-Undecided
comment by Marc K
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, August 21 2002 @ 07:34 AM UTC
Now,I\'m gonna admit right up front,that i\'ve never really read Chomsky.I don\'t go reading stuff by the main thinkers much,as i like to read stuff produced by your average john/jane doe.

But in my opinion,the issue is clear.Anarchists are against control/coercion.That goes for both control of the majority by the minority,and vice versa.More power to the state,is just as bad as more power to the capitalists.What it means,ultimately,is a small clique excerising control over others.

If chomsky has called for more state action,then he is in favour of more rules,regulations,and more power to an elite,when he should be calling for the creation of a system where power is shared amoungst all people in a stateless society.

If that\'s what Chomsky has said,he\'s wrong.Simple as.

As to whether he\'s an anarchist-I don\'t know.Like i said,I\'ve never read him.But it seems like Noam is becoming someone who misses the point of anarchist objections to the state,and thus is in danger of ceasing to be an anarchist.Still,I might be wrong.
comment by winky
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, June 24 2003 @ 06:06 PM UTC
why is the anarcho milieu so unsophisticated in terms of understanding the historical development of state power in relation to capital? i mean, are you really serious when you say lets destroy the state and then the corporations will have no defense? do you think they have their own private little clubhouses where neither is allowed? statism in its modern form arose to enforce the dictates of capital and then later to try to resolve its contradictions, through fascism, democracy, and state capitalism. how the fuck are we going to exert enough power to make our demands one day nonnegotiable, in other words to dissolve the social relations of capitalism and authoritarianism. through refusing anything in which the state has any hand in? great, start your knitting circle. we need organization which will reflect the necessities of a life without the state and without relations based on exchange. chomsky has contributed much, and muchmore than most academics with the time to research and write. his ideas are of course up for scrutiny, but i do agree with the person who said that chomsky will most likely not betray a real revolutionary situation here. but trying to say the fight is simply against the state is falling into a deep trap of fetishism, i think. by the way, there is a good short piece on the history of the split between anarchism and communism at the website for the \"brousse collective\".
chomsky is right
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 12:01 AM UTC
You guys are incorrect on a number of counts.
1. Corperations are a threat without the state to regulate them : an example is what is called price jacking, it occured alot during the late 1800's with the railroad barons when they all got together and rasied the price to transport goods. there is aslo no reason to belive that monopolys would not occur with out goverment regulation.
2.Goverment can be influanced through militant action .an example is the f strikes for the eight hour day in which railroads , mills, and factorys where taken offline or run by the people for their own benifit. if you make it clear to the goverment thet they will comply or be overthrown they will change (or be overthrown).
3.the state is only one of three powerful estates the other two being corperations and orginizied religon . you should destroy these two before even looking at the state , the state can be the club you use to kill these creatures. before destroying the state . NO GODS , no masters

chomsky is wrong
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, July 08 2005 @ 10:31 PM UTC
"the state can be the club you use to kill these creatures. before destroying the state ."

eRRR...Uhmmm.....it's been tried. Didn't work to well. It's important to realize that the state operates on it's own imperatives as well as capitalist ones.(Read Saul Newman's anarchism marxism and the bonapartist state) Give it a reason to exist and it runs. Withering away is not in the cards.

Vigilante
chomsky is wrong
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 11:27 AM UTC
"The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house."
Chomsky's Statism: An anarchism for the next millenium?
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, July 09 2005 @ 08:25 AM UTC
Chomsky has done a lot for the anarchist thoery in todays times, however my
big problem with his reformism is that he simply states we should defned the
welfare sate without actually making it better,decentralizing or expanding it
into somthing better, evan that would be better than what he is saying now.

Chomsky seems to like the atomasphere of collages and intellectuals he has a
good grasp on imperialism and the media but to me his class analysis
perticluaurly in the united sates runs a littel short. My biggest criticizim is that
he does not discuss current anarchist projects or evan grassroutes projects
going on currently, his entire theis is against what the right and the capitalist
are doing, he dosn' talk muck about people that are fighting back in a
revolutionary non-reformist way currently. For him yesterday it was the
history of grassroots struggle of the people and the working class, today it's
defend the goverment and the welfare sate aganist the attack of big
corporations and the neo-cons. As if there is no future for anarchism.


He should talk about things that are going on now anarchism is bigger than
ti has beeen for th last fity years that has to count for something. But then
again I am sure that would threten many of the upper middle class
intelletuals he want' to guilttrip into activism. I guess we just have to take
him with a grain of salt.